SAYNOTO0870.COM - Who Gets The Money?

rao

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Re: Who Gets The Money?
Reply #30 - Dec 18^th, 2012 at 3:02pm

Lots of coverage on BBC Radio about the article.
Not one of the "bright young things" who ask the questions asked why HMRC was using a premium rate number as it's only contact number.

With regard to the article it states:
"The HMRC contract is operated by the telecoms giant Cable and Wireless. HMRC does not receive a share of the money."

I wonder what sort of contract that could be then?
If they don't receive any money then why do it in the first place? I could suggest stuff but I don't want to go there.

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rao

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Re: Who Gets The Money?
Reply #31 - Dec 18^th, 2012 at 6:05pm

Just heard the HMRC thing discussed on 5Live Drive.
The so called BBC money "expert" was asked by a listener "who gets the money from the premium rate calls?"
His reply was to say he didn't really know but probably it goes back to the tax payer.
Believe me, nobody cares anymore.
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

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« Last Edit: Dec 18^th, 2012 at 6:06pm by rao »

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catj

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Re: Who Gets The Money?
Reply #32 - Dec 18^th, 2012 at 6:39pm

I see several people in the Daily Mail comments saying "0845 is not premium rate. It's a local rate call charged at 5 pence per minute". Several also say "Tough luck if you're on a mobile, use a landline".

There's a few mentions for sayNOto0870, so that's a good thing. There's 360 comments so far, haven't had time to read them all.

Another comment says "National 0870 and Local 084 numbers are not premium rate. I despair at how much ignorance there seems to be on this subject. No wonder people mistakenly think they are being fleeced when they have no idea how the world around them actually works."

I'm guessing that person has never looked at their phone bills - or never phones 084 or 087 numbers.

There's several people posting the right information, but they appear to have been drowned out by numerous people falsely claiming that "0845 is local rate" .

Is this some wierd variation of "Stockholm Syndrome"; one where people being ripped off claim that they are not?

I'll guess that the changes coming next year will be a bit of a shock!

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Who Gets The Money?
Reply #33 - Dec 18^th, 2012 at 7:36pm

catj wrote on Dec 18^th, 2012 at 6:39pm:

I'll guess that the changes coming next year will be a bit of a shock!

We will be hard pressed to convince some people that the changes will be improving the situation by making what happens at present transparent.

Those who believe some of the lies being put about at present will see the changes as being intended to make calls more expensive. Those who believe Ofcom's motives to be evil will naturally assume that there is some catch.

Do not be disheartened by reading Daily Mail comments; in the course of this campaigning I have encountered many who have been able to switch their strongly held views by 180º. It just takes time.

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catj Senior Member Offline Posts: 366	Re: Who Gets The Money? Reply #34 - Dec 18^th, 2012 at 9:13pm If Daily Mail readers typify the general public, things do indeed look bleak. Luckily that's not the case.
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rao

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Re: Who Gets The Money?
Reply #35 - Dec 18^th, 2012 at 10:01pm

Surely the whole point is that the very people who are tasked with reporting the facts appear not to have the first idea about the facts they are reporting.
Contributors to forums and newspaper comment sections are inevitably the very people who are sufficiently knowledgeable and motivated to "put pen to paper".
Isn't this known as preaching to the converted?

Over the past few months I have spent too much of my time communicating (or trying to communicate) with the complaints departments of organisations utilising an 0845 telephone operation. In most cases the people handling the complaint had been brainwashed into believing that the 0845 number was a local call and that they were in fact doing their customers a favour.
It remains my contention that the majority of people in the UK either don't know of don't care and the media is quite simply reinforcing these beliefs.
Contributors to this forum are "believers" and as such are not representative of the public in general.
Remember, if the media says it's OK then it's OK

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catj Senior Member Offline Posts: 366	Re: Who Gets The Money? Reply #36 - Dec 18^th, 2012 at 10:23pm The reporter on this story does appear to be clued up on the terminology and the issues. So often, stuff like this is mis-reported. Perhaps someone decides to dumb it down and simplify the terminology and thereby ends up introducing errors.
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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Who Gets The Money?
Reply #37 - Dec 19^th, 2012 at 1:51am

rao wrote on Dec 18^th, 2012 at 10:01pm:

Surely the whole point is that the very people who are tasked with reporting the facts appear not to have the first idea about the facts they are reporting.
… It remains my contention that the majority of people in the UK either don't know of don't care and the media is quite simply reinforcing these beliefs.

I would not wish to challenge the experience reported or the general contention that we have a lot more work to do.

None of the general media coverage of this specific NAO announcement published so far has made any direct reference to the fair telecoms campaign. I cannot therefore offer any evidence in support of my assertion that we were consulted by the media in preparing their material and our published information appears to have been used.

Our blogging on this story contains a list of many extracts from the coverage which fairly reflect the cost of calling 0845 numbers. The news release contained there includes reference to a number of previous engagements on this issue.

Campaigning success is not immediate, nor total; it is however achieved. I often say that I engage with these matters, rather than those which are far more important, or none at all, simply because my efforts are seen to have a positive effect. I urge others to share this view and join with us in the fair telecoms campaign.

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rao

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Re: Who Gets The Money?
Reply #38 - Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 2:41pm

Is my understanding correct that the Consumer Rights Directive will make it illegal for organisations to use 084, 087 and 089 numbers for customer service and complaints?
As I suspect that many non-local organisations will switch to 03 numbers, is there anything in the proposals that will prevent call providers, who currently include 03 numbers in their call packages, claiming that as they are non-geographical numbers they can therefore be excluded from call packages?
If 03 numbers remain in call packages then presumably the cost of call packages themselves will have to increase in order to compensate the call providers for loss of revenue.

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Dave

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Re: Who Gets The Money?
Reply #39 - Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 2:49pm

rao wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 2:41pm:

Is my understanding correct that the Consumer Rights Directive will make it illegal for organisations to use 084, 087 and 089 numbers for customer service and complaints?

The Consumer Rights Directive bans charges above the "basic rate", which means that 084, 087 and 09 should be banned.

rao wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 2:41pm:

As I suspect that many non-local organisations will switch to 03 numbers, is there anything in the proposals that will prevent call providers, who currently include 03 numbers in their call packages, claiming that as they are non-geographical numbers they can therefore be excluded from call packages?

There are other regulations which require that call providers charge 03 inline with 01/02, including them in bundles/packages on the exact same basis.

rao wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 2:41pm:

If 03 numbers remain in call packages then presumably the cost of call packages themselves will have to increase in order to compensate the call providers for loss of revenue.

It is the nature of packages that calls that are zero-fee must be covered by the subscription cost.

Presumably providers have to assess the number of call minutes being made and hence their expense as far as connecting those calls against the charges they impose on customers, whether on call packages or other services.

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rao Newbie Offline Posts: 12 Gender:	Re: Who Gets The Money? Reply #40 - Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 4:52pm I guess the definition of "customer services" could become contentious. For example, asking for information about a bank account is very different to online banking when the bank is asked to perform a function.
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Dave

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Re: Who Gets The Money?
Reply #41 - Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 5:13pm

rao wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 4:52pm:

I guess the definition of "customer services" could become contentious.
For example, asking for information about a bank account is very different to online banking when the bank is asked to perform a function.

Providing information about a bank account is a function and online banking performs the same function.

"Customer services" is a paraphrase. The Directive (PDF) states:

Quote:

Article 21
Communication by telephone

Member States shall ensure that where the trader operates a telephone line for the purpose of contacting him by telephone in relation to the contract concluded, the consumer, when contacting the trader is not bound to pay more than the basic rate.

The first subparagraph shall be without prejudice to the right of telecommunication services providers to charge for such calls.

It is post-contract lines that can't charge more than the basic rate.

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catj

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Re: Who Gets The Money?
Reply #42 - Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 7:08pm

The official wording is very dry and crusty and somewhat cryptic.

"Customer service and complaints" is a useful equivalent, but I'm sure that many companies will test the limits of exactly what is covered, seeking to minimise what they move over to non-revenue-share numbers.

We already see the proliferation of 0800 to signup, 0844 for day to day business and 0871 when there's a problem that needs solving. A lot of that will be reigned in, and not before time.

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Who Gets The Money?
Reply #43 - Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 8:18pm

It is important to understand that the introduction of the unbundled tariff and the CRD regulations will come in together.

This will help businesses to focus on which telephone services they wish to charge for. Many of them quite genuinely do not understand that they are imposing a Service Charge by using a 084 number. I do not seek to excuse that ignorance, but to explain that many businesses will be put in a difficult position because they have not deliberately set out to rip-off their customers.

The subsidy obtained, even from a 087 number, represents only a modest proportion of the cost of operating a call centre. The increased cost caused by the loss of subsidy will however appear to be a significant expense. It is vital that the telecoms industry recognises that it will have to compete hard for business, as it will no longer be able to use misleading indications of call costs as a way of offering good deals.

Although there are undoubtedly rip-off merchants out there, nobody is operating a call centre on a 084/087 number in order to make money - they are only offsetting their costs. When that option is removed, it may be that call centres will be scaled back, leading to greater waiting times and callers hanging up. In some cases telephone access may be withdrawn altogether, so that customer service functions are only provided online.

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rao

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Re: Who Gets The Money?
Reply #44 - Dec 23^rd, 2012 at 11:00am

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2012 at 8:18pm:

It is important to understand that the introduction of the unbundled tariff and the CRD regulations will come in together.

This will help businesses to focus on which telephone services they wish to charge for. Many of them quite genuinely do not understand that they are imposing a Service Charge by using a 084 number. I do not seek to excuse that ignorance, but to explain that many businesses will be put in a difficult position because they have not deliberately set out to rip-off their customers.

The subsidy obtained, even from a 087 number, represents only a modest proportion of the cost of operating a call centre. The increased cost caused by the loss of subsidy will however appear to be a significant expense. It is vital that the telecoms industry recognises that it will have to compete hard for business, as it will no longer be able to use misleading indications of call costs as a way of offering good deals.

Although there are undoubtedly rip-off merchants out there, nobody is operating a call centre on a 084/087 number in order to make money - they are only offsetting their costs. When that option is removed, it may be that call centres will be scaled back, leading to greater waiting times and callers hanging up. In some cases telephone access may be withdrawn altogether, so that customer service functions are only provided online.

Reading this post somehow makes me feel uncomfortable.
It seems sometime, somehow, the goalposts moved.
My understanding is that premium rate calls were introduced to allow businesses such as chat lines, to trade by providing a service over the telephone line. This was their only source of revenue and the customer paid for the service via the call charge.
Other businesses provided customer support to backup their primary activites and these calls were either freephone or geographical lines.
The proliferation of call centres, which were introduced for efficiency reasons (more profit and/or lower product cost), seems to have given these businesses a golden opportunity to jump on the premium call charge bandwagon. Now, even the local plumber has one.
I do not believe for one minute that these businesses did not know what they were doing. (You only have to read the selling propositions on a TCP website.)
I cannot agree that it is ever acceptable for a business to subsidise its customer support by using premium call phone lines. Customer support should always be built into the product cost. How can it be right that, for example, Direct Line sells its insurance and then charges customers for support.
Furthermore, businesses who use 0845 numbers facilitate the opportunity for call providers to load the cost even more. Am I seriously expected to believe that simply making the telecomms industry be more transparent over “who gets the money” will force the call providers to reduce their charges?
I really hope that this legislation will sort out the premium rate call charge debacle, but history tells me not to hold my breath.

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« Last Edit: Dec 23^rd, 2012 at 11:24am by rao »

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