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I've never really understood this site's premise? (Read 14,595 times)
03700000000
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I've never really understood this site's premise?
Feb 20th, 2014 at 10:29pm
 
I've never really understood this site's premise?

OK, I'm being contentious here, but can you not see the hypocrisy of it all.

As i understand this, the main complaint is the use of premium rate numbers with confusing charges often going hidden or undeclared, or not unifrom, and how it si the various businesses sucker-punching call-revenue for hapless 'Joe Public'. Post after psot blames this company or the other for creaming you all.
Oh... pleeeeze, come on.

Sorry, but can you not see the hypocrisy of the argument? Almost every man-jack of you reading this operates your very own premium number. It will likely cost more to dial than many an NGN too. And likely you all sucked it up.

I of course refer to yoru 07XXX number.

We were offered by the Telco industry a mobile in the millions.
What it cost to call was low on the list of priorites, compared (in the early days) to the convenince, and dare I say prestige. Even today,   the situation could be reagarded as ever more ridiculous (but that is another post).

You all did what most of the end-users of NGNs  are doing right now, you bought what was offered. So you must ask yourself,  why did you do this? The ansewer is simple, becaause to get the service you desired, you had no choice.

I have previously decalred, we are NGN users, and we can honestly sayy, when we first took our 0870, we had much the same thought processes as 'Joe-Public' now does when said Joe signs up for his first mobile phone. If we wanted teh service, we signed-up or went without.

So I'm sorry, don't complain when XYZ company has you dial their premium 0870/0845/08blah NGN. You would do the same.

In fact, oh look... you already did.





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« Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2014 at 10:42pm by 03700000000 »  
 
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Ian G
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Re: I've never really understood this site's premise?
Reply #1 - Feb 20th, 2014 at 10:43pm
 
I'll get the popcorn. This will be good.
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Re: I've never really understood this site's premise?
Reply #2 - Feb 20th, 2014 at 11:06pm
 
I'm looking forward to this one too. Compared to 07XXX NGN numbers, and go on, tell me you've not got one, little 'ole 087X/084X etc is a minor, minor backwater.

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Re: I've never really understood this site's premise?
Reply #3 - Feb 20th, 2014 at 11:08pm
 
Representing the fair telecoms campaign, which contributes to this forum, but opposes (and is opposed by) many comments made here - I wholly endorse the essential point.

The extent to which landline callers have long subsidised mobile users is wholly unacceptable, but it is coming to an end - in slow stages. We have yet to see the full effect, especially in respect of the tricky issue of those who have free SIMs and thereby currently pay nothing for the network connection that enables them to receive calls.

As the truth about the Service Charge associated with 084 and 087 numbers is eventually being acknowledged, business users are themselves recognising the need to move away. I hope that consumers will be equally happy to meet the full cost of their mobile phone network connections!

(Get another bag of popcorn!)
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Dave
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Re: I've never really understood this site's premise?
Reply #4 - Feb 21st, 2014 at 12:30am
 
I agree. The reason is because consumers have simply reacted to an adverse net-effect of an issue they don't have appreciation for and understanding of. As a result, there is a total lack of discussion on what is at the heart of the issue: termination charges (which are the interconnection rates of differing operators). Because of this there can be no discussion about what policy should be, by way of a resolution.

As you say, private consumers do the same to others (by way of mobile numbers), but don't put any energy into the issue like they do when companies do it to them. This is the same as many users of 084 numbers who frequently don't acknowledge what they're doing either.

That's the end of the trailers. Now for a message advising to switch mobile phones off (sponsored by a mobile phone company). The curtains open to allow projection of 21:9 images.

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« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2014 at 12:43am by Dave »  
 
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Re: I've never really understood this site's premise?
Reply #5 - Feb 22nd, 2014 at 8:50am
 
You could answer the bare-faced gall of just  about every post on this site with the following words (I singled one out at random) :

[color=#ff0000]Thank you for providing the above information on XYZ. At this site we hail the XYZ company/organisation for providing us with their  cheap-to-call NGN. They are indeed wonderful - we feel they deserve submission for sainthood.

To complete the process, and be in the spirit of this site, can we firstly ask you to enter your own 07xxx NGN into the "Hall of Shame", and secondly get it ported thru' to a Local-rate or Free-call. I'm sure up to this point with few exceptions, whatever NGN number XYZ choose to use, it is still be cheaper to call them than you. I'm sure you see the need to rectify this.

Please now provide us all with your 03xx alternative.

We will deal with the submission of XYZ for canonizaion this minute
[/color]

[Yes, Sarcasm is a low form of wit.]

Unlike the vast majority of the posts on this site choosing to attack this or that XYZ, surely our fight is with the telco industry and more imporatntly the hypocrisy of the public. The public's own hypocrisy once put into perspective is the more powerful weapon in dealing with the telcos.

So, which bit do we not get here?
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« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2014 at 9:07am by 03700000000 »  
 
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Ian G
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Re: I've never really understood this site's premise?
Reply #6 - Feb 22nd, 2014 at 9:08am
 
Calls to 084, 087 and 09 numbers incur a Service Charge to the benefit of the called party. This generally makes these calls more expensive than calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers and precludes their inclusion within inclusive call bundles - which is the majority way that people pay for their calls these days (Note that BT pricing for non-geographic calls is not typical as it is affected by legacy regulation that ends in 2015).

This site exists to find and then alert people to alternative 01, 02 and 03 numbers for published 084 and 087 numbers. A much wider campaign exists elsewhere to end the inappropriate use of 084 and 087 numbers by organisations that are not providing a chargeable service. The law agrees with this point, and the new CCR legislation makes it illegal to use 084, 087 and 09 numbers for customer service lines from 13 June 2014.

The Cabinet Office also agrees with this point and has instructed public services to use 03 numbers as their primary number. The new policy allows retention (for now) of 0845 and other numbers for use by the small number of callers (mostly with BT) that benefit from discounted rates when calling 084 and 087 numbers outside the allowances of their inclusive call plan. They may be no need for such retention after June 2015.

Calls to 084 and 087 numbers are generally overpriced when called from mobile phones. Ofcom is addressing that point with the introduction of the "unbundled tariffs" pricing regime on 26 June 2015. The fact that the mobile industry is opposed to these changes, and has already caused them to be significantly delayed, could be taken as a sign that the measures are exactly what is required to bring transparency to the pricing of these calls and force a much-needed reduction in their prices.

Once the new system is in place, there may well be some serious questions to ask of some providers, both landline and mobile. These enquiries will revolve around the levels and the difference in the levels of their call prices for calling geographic-rate numbers, for calling mobile numbers and their Access Charge for calling chargeable non-geographic numbers. I include calls to mobile numbers in this simply because the mobile termination rate has been steadily reduced over the last few years and by April 2015 will be under 0.5p/min and yet the price of calling a mobile number from a landline continues to go up. However, this is a different issue to that caused by the usage of 084, 087 and 09 numbers. With a mobile phone, the user is not making money from incoming calls.

In Section A1 of the latest published version of National Telephone Numbering Plan that comes into effect in June 2015 there is an extra column headed "tariff principles". So far, this column is filled in only for 03 (parity with 01/02 rates), 080 (free), 084, 087, 090, 091 and 098 (Service Charge plus Access Charge) numbers (as well as 116 (free) and 118 (Service Charge plus Access Charge) numbers). The possibility therefore exists for a "tariff principle" to be applied to 07 mobile numbers at some point in the future. Perhaps the long term aim is parity with geographic rate?
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« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2014 at 11:24am by Ian G »  
 
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Re: I've never really understood this site's premise?
Reply #7 - Feb 22nd, 2014 at 9:43am
 
Yes, OK. Great. We know all that. I'm not sure it answers the central point of this thread. Before you have a point you need to satisfy us of your own integrity.

No troll. A direct question to you. All of you.

You know mine. Just  as you would expect of any calls you make, can you confirm, right now, any calls to you are at local or free-call rates.

Good. Glad to hear it.

Or whatever you say, any word, you massively lost the argument.

Now follow it with an entry in the database.
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« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2014 at 10:09am by 03700000000 »  
 
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Re: I've never really understood this site's premise?
Reply #8 - Feb 22nd, 2014 at 10:18am
 
03700000000 wrote on Feb 22nd, 2014 at 9:43am:
Yes, OK. Great. We know all that. I'm not sure it answers the central point of this thread. Before you have a point you need to satisfy us of your own integrity.

No troll. A direct question to you. All of you.

You know mine. Just  as you would expect of any calls you make, can you confirm, right now, any calls to you are at local or free-call rates.

Good. Glad to hear it.

Or whatever you say, any word, you massively lost the argument.

Now follow it with an entry in the database.



Local rate does not exist and hasn't since 2004, ASA, TS, Ofcom etc all agree!

.
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03700000000
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Re: I've never really understood this site's premise?
Reply #9 - Feb 22nd, 2014 at 10:30am
 

Quote:
Local rate does not exist and hasn't since 2004, ASA, TS, Ofcom etc all agree!


4/10 See me
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« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2014 at 10:33am by 03700000000 »  
 
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CJT-80
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Re: I've never really understood this site's premise?
Reply #10 - Feb 22nd, 2014 at 8:57pm
 
Dave do you mean like this? Couldn't find the famous mobile operator..

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Regards,

CJT-80

Any comments made are my own and are not those of SayNoTo0870.com
 
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Re: I've never really understood this site's premise?
Reply #11 - Feb 22nd, 2014 at 11:36pm
 
03700000000 you have yet to present your case for what you consider others should do. As I say, if they provide their landline number then it might go unanswered. In such a situation how does this help a company trying to contact them? Or are you saying that a company would prefer to ring someone and get no answer on account of the fact that the cost of calling a mobile is more expensive?

It would also be interesting to know what you do. Do you not have a mobile phone or at least not give out the incoming 07 number? Or have you set-up a 01/02/03 number to forward to the 07 number, meaning you pick up some of the cost (including when calls come from mobiles and so cost the same as a 07 number) ? Or have you set-up a 01/02/03 number which is delivered to your mobile handset using VoIP?

As Ian G says, the termination charges by the mobile networks have dropped to below 1ppm and will fall still further. It's now not the mobile user's network which is charging more than to a geographic rate number, but the call retailers themselves. I fail to see how mobile users can be accountable for 03700000000's provider charging much higher rates for calls to mobiles as geographic rate numbers.
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« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2014 at 11:39pm by Dave »  
 
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Re: I've never really understood this site's premise?
Reply #12 - Feb 22nd, 2014 at 11:37pm
 
CJT-80 wrote on Feb 22nd, 2014 at 8:57pm:
Dave do you mean like this? Couldn't find the famous mobile operator..

Thanks. I specifically said that the message was "sponsored by a mobile phone company" so as not to offer any brand name.
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Re: I've never really understood this site's premise?
Reply #13 - Feb 23rd, 2014 at 5:42pm
 
The point about a mobile number is that it is intrinsically part of a mobile telephone service, this making it impossible to get away from — that is users have no "choice".

Prior to the introduction of 03 numbers, corporate organisations had no choice but to impose a Service Charge if they wanted a non-geographic number, 0845 being the most basic type. Since 2007 these bodies have had the choice to use a non-geographic number calls to which are charged at geographic rate.

None of the above justifies imposition of a higher cost for termination than geographic numbers, but rather it lays out the situation as it is and as it was.

03700000000, as you rightly say, the battle with high charges to mobiles from landlines is with the telcos. However, the battle with the telcos over expensive numbers used by corporate organisations was won in 2007, with the introduction of 03 numbers. So do you consider that there is justification for continued widespread use of "expensive" numbers by these bodies purely because their customers frequently provide "expensive" numbers?


Do you think that businesses would prefer to ring customers on geographic rate numbers and get no answer (because they are not at home) rather than get through to them by calling their 07-mobile number?

If a business has fields for home telephone and mobile telephone numbers within customer records then it has a "choice" as to which to call where a customer has offered both. What proportion of your customers supply only a mobile number?


What is the state of play regarding business telephone tariffs and calls to mobiles, as against to calls to 01/02/03 numbers? There is more competitive pressure in this area than with residential services due to higher call volumes, so has this driven down the price of calls to mobiles?


I agree with the essence of the point being made here. I have never viewed my mobile number as being "equal" to, or an alternative to, my landline number, due to the higher cost of termination (which results in higher retail call charges). In correspondence I always quote my landline as the first and main number followed by my mobile.

On occasions I may give an organisation only my mobile number simply because I expect not to be in when they are likely to call. I am mindful that the call is likely to cost more but unless the call not getting answered is genuinely preferred then there is nothing I can do about it.
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Re: I've never really understood this site's premise?
Reply #14 - Feb 23rd, 2014 at 6:49pm
 
Yes, mobiles are generally more expensive than other landlines but the problem I have with some NGNs are the fact that some  companies/organisations are using these numbers not for any routing ability but the fact it allows them to actually receive revenue from the calls.  It is a stealth premium rate.

This is different from official premium rate numbers (09x) where regulation may prohibit charging people whilst in a long queue and more to the point consumers are aware of the approximate cost and the fact that the called company/organisation makes money from it.

It's actually the OCP (Originating Communications Company) like BT, TalkTalk, SkyTalk, Virgin, etc that set how much they want to charge per min on top of the actual cost of that call.

For example, Ofcom have set price controls on how much mobile companies can charge per minute for calls to their numbers.  At this time, this rate is actually 1.08ppm so when you see likes of Virgin charging around 15-20ppm then who is benefiting from it?

Also, although I don't have the actual cost of calls to 0844/0871 but at a guess it's probably around same amount (or maybe a little cheaper) than the actual cost of calling a mobile simply because it has to be higher to pay the company/organisation called their cut of the call.

So remember it's actually the originating communications provider that sets how much it wants to charge for each call; and with 0844/0871 numbers the called company/organisation may actually financially benefit in some way whereas with mobile numbers only the OCP that benefits more.
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