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BT reducing line rental (Read 22,983 times)
Dave
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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #15 - Oct 27th, 2017 at 12:14pm
 
It says that the reduction will also apply to Home Phone Saver customers, although they will have to opt in to get it. Subparagraph 2.2.1 of BT's committments says that the discount will not apply to Home Phone Saver customers, therefore should they opt-in they will be migrated, presumably, to Line Rental plus Unlimited Anytime Calls.

Those on Home Phone Saver packages where the price is guaranteed come April will be on Home Phone Saver 2019 and Home Phone Saver 2020, both at £21.99. The cost of Line Rental plus Unlimited Anytime Calls will be £20.98, if the latter's price doesn't increase. However, what's to say that it will not go up 50p or maybe £1 by then? The cost could perhaps be £21.98, meaning that Home Phone Saver customers could opt-in to save one whole penny per whole month.

So, around 200,000 of the 1 million (that's 20%) could actually end up no better off.

This reduction has come about through BT agreeing to an offer, rather than Ofcom decreeing what BT must do. It comes into effect in April next year, which is five months away. April is also the time that Home Phone Saver offers expire and usually renew. So a possibility is that Home Phone Saver 2020 will lapse with no replacement Home Phone Saver 2021 proposition in its place.

Those who signed up for Home Phone Saver (2017) and Home Phone Saver 2018 are paying £19.99 and £20.99 respectively. BT could potentially increase the price of those, perhaps to £21.99 bringing them into line with HPS 2019 and HPS 2020, in order to claw back some revenue.

And some people actually say these companies use smoke and mirrors.


Having had a read through Ofcom's Statement for Review of the market for standalone landline telephone services it is clear that this review relates only to line rental-only customers. Ofcom had previously put into one category those who only have a line (without broadband) and those who take the line from one supplier and broadband from another. By the Statement its opinion had changed, and nothing will be done for the latter class of consumers.

What it talks of is the lack of engagement line rental-only customers tend to have in choosing supplier. These are typically elderly people who do not use the Internet and therefore are not likely to see offerings from other suppliers via that mode. Clearly Post Office Home Phone is in a great position because it can potentially reach these people easily by advertising in post offices.


What might this do to the broadband market? As I say, the Review apparently hasn't considered this. But how can it be that BT will offer Line Rental of £11.99 for landline-only customers and higher Line Rental of perhaps £18.99 for broadband customers? Surely the differential won't be taken from the figure said to be line rental and put onto the cost of the broadband. But if it were then that might result in more pressure for lower broadband prices. If it weren't then there would be two classes of BT line rental.
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« Last Edit: Oct 27th, 2017 at 12:42pm by Dave »  
 
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Ian01
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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #16 - Oct 27th, 2017 at 2:17pm
 

There is another way of looking at it.

Those who are already on BT Home Phone Saver have benefitted from the reduced rate for (up to) four or five years, and now Ofcom is forcing BT to extend the discount to all of its landline-only customers.

It has been clear for some time that the retail cost of broadband has been understated, subsidised by inflated charges for line-rental and with those inflated charges borne by all customers including those who do not have broadband. I would now expect an adjustment to the pricing, with broadband going up by £7 per month and the line rental going down by £7 per month and the total staying much the same.


The next item to tackle is those who are on a deal with inclusive weekend calls or inclusive evening and weekend calls and who spend more than £8 per month on weekday daytime calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers (at 21p per call plus 12p per minute) need to change to the deal with inclusive calls at any time. See: http://www.fairtelecoms.org.uk/docs.html?btroii

Also, at some point BT need to catch up with everyone else and offer inclusive calls to UK mobile numbers.
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« Last Edit: Oct 27th, 2017 at 5:09pm by Ian01 »  
 
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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #17 - Oct 27th, 2017 at 6:07pm
 
I do wonder whether the cost of inclusive call plans will just continue to go up and up and up. And up. This is alongside the incessant increases in out-of-plan penalty charges, both per whole minute and per call fees. When might it stop?

As you rightly say Ian01, providers have been offsetting the cost of broadband onto the cost of line rental which is borne by both broadband and non-broadband customers. Perhaps there may be tendency to do the same for inclusive packages now that the avenue to do it via line rental has been closed.

The price increases on inclusive packages (and penalty charges) will make it easier to include calls to mobiles. That is, the step up to include mobile calls may have been mitigated because the increase has already happened (in small steps).


It is worth remembering that prior to the abolition of BT Standard in 2004, line rental on that tariff was effectively £9.50. The cost was £10.50 with £1 worth of calls included.
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« Last Edit: Oct 27th, 2017 at 6:08pm by Dave »  
 
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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #18 - Oct 29th, 2017 at 9:39am
 

With falling termination rates, charges for inclusive call plans should not be going up very rapidly - not unless callers are making dramatically more calls.

On landlines, inclusive call plans with "unlimited anytime" calls cost around £8 per month. Contrast this with the termination rates currently charged:
- 0.21p per minute for UK 01 and 02 numbers
- 0.56p per minute for non-geographic 03 numbers
- 0.49p per minute for UK 071-075 and 077-079 numbers.

On mobile phones, and excluding handset costs, unlimited calls and texts costs around £10 to £15 per month on contract. On pay-as-you-go a top-up of £15 to £20 comes with unlimited calls and texts. Mobile plans usually also come with an allowance of data usage.

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« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2017 at 10:43am by Ian01 »  
 
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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #19 - Oct 29th, 2017 at 11:24am
 
Ian01 wrote on Oct 29th, 2017 at 9:39am:
With falling termination rates, charges for inclusive call plans should not be going up very rapidly - not unless callers are making dramatically more calls.

Emphasis on should there, I think. Line rental should not have gone up as it did, but it did in spite of falling wholesale costs.
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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #20 - Oct 29th, 2017 at 10:00pm
 
My research suggests that there are thousands of telco customers paying monthly fees for unlimited call charges and they do not fully understand the unlimited call concept. The majority of teklo customers do not compare the cost of the monthly charge against the call cost saving. In every case that I have carried out a comparison the customers call usage does not cover the monthly cost.

I just goes to show that people will pay a set fee for peace of mind and not checking to see if it is cost effective.
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« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2017 at 10:09pm by bazzerfewi »  
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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #21 - Oct 29th, 2017 at 11:15pm
 
bazzerfewi wrote on Oct 29th, 2017 at 10:00pm:
In every case that I have carried out a comparison the customers call usage does not cover the monthly cost.

That is a very interesting piece of research, given that the break-even points are so low. (See the examples in our briefing.)

I suspect that your sample only covers people who make very few calls, and may not therefore be representative.

Could you please advise us of the case having the greatest usage that was covered by this research, so that we can understand the limits of its scope.

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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #22 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 5:15am
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Oct 29th, 2017 at 11:15pm:
bazzerfewi wrote on Oct 29th, 2017 at 10:00pm:
In every case that I have carried out a comparison the customers call usage does not cover the monthly cost.

That is a very interesting piece of research, given that the break-even points are so low. (See the examples in our briefing.)

I suspect that your sample only covers people who make very few calls, and may not therefore be representative.

Could you please advise us of the case having the greatest usage that was covered by this research, so that we can understand the limits of its scope.

My research was only in my local area and it was limited to my neighbours but in every case where there was low usage it was not cost effective to pay the call unlimited charge.

In my opinion the telco’s just promote the calls unlimited programmes and do not take into consideration the fact that it may not be cost effective for their customer, surely this is not GOOD PRACTICE and there may be a case under the mis-selling rules.

I do not know how it is determined that a company is mis-selling but I am more than happy to contact the necessary organization and file a complaint in this regard.

Back in the day I recall us all campaigning about the miss use of the 08 numbers maybe there is now a case for the miss-use of the calls unlimited programme.

Edit: Quote at top amended - Dave
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« Last Edit: Oct 31st, 2017 at 5:04pm by CJT-80 »  
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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #23 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 9:43am
 
bazzerfewi wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 5:15am:
In my opinion the telco’s just promote the calls unlimited programmes and do not take into consideration the fact that it may not be cost effective for their customer, surely this is not GOOD PRACTICE and there may be a case under the mis-selling rules.

I think that if you looked more closely at the reality, you would find that telcos are UNDER-selling inclusive plans. If, as you claim, you have researched this matter in a meaningful way so as to support an alternative conclusion, then please share some of this research, as requested.

We are all free to hold and voice opinions, based on nothing other than wild assumptions. This does not however serve measured debate.


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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #24 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 10:45am
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 9:43am:
bazzerfewi wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 5:15am:
In my opinion the telco’s just promote the calls unlimited programmes and do not take into consideration the fact that it may not be cost effective for their customer, surely this is not GOOD PRACTICE and there may be a case under the mis-selling rules.

I think that if you looked more closely at the reality, you would find that telcos are UNDER-selling inclusive plans. If, as you claim, you have researched this matter in a meaningful way so as to support an alternative conclusion, then please share some of this research, as requested.

We are all free to hold and voice opinions, based on nothing other than wild assumptions. This does not however serve measured debate.

The only information that I have is from my local vicinity a number of us have cancelled the calls unlimited because it is more expensive as most of our calls are made via our mobiles, what I was attempting to explain was the fact that maybe there are others that just pay the monthly charge for calls unlimited not realising that in fact they are low users and the monthly fee outways the call charges.

I apologise for any inaccuracies 

Edit: Quote at top amended - Dave
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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #25 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 12:51pm
 
bazzerfewi wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 10:45am:
a number of us have cancelled the calls unlimited because it is more expensive as most of our calls are made via our mobiles

If your pattern of BT landline calling is below that equivalent to the examples given in our briefing, then you are indeed doing the right thing. I do however hope that you are choosing the correct inclusive calls plan on your mobile, because the same situation exists with both contract and PAYG mobile tariffs.

The cost of inclusive plans is commonly presented without a parallel indication of the alternative Penalty Charge.

Our fear, indeed our strong suspicion, is that many fail to recognise the high level of the Penalty Charges and are misled by statements such as
"if you just love to chat on your home phone day and night, go for our anytime plan".

There may be those with very low usage who choose the unlimited anytime plan in error, but we feel that this exaggeration of the calling pattern necessary to justify subscription to the plan represents under-, rather than over-, selling, leading to far too many Penalty Charges being incurred.

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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #26 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 1:01pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 12:51pm:
Our fear, indeed our strong suspicion, is that many fail to recognise the high level of the Penalty Charges and are misled by statements such as
"if you just love to chat on your home phone day and night, go for our anytime plan".

I think that this statement is misleading in respect of who it says needs this product. It implies a smaller target consumer group than would actually benefit from it, thereby implying that it would not be of benefit to a portion of the entire group that it would actually be of benefit to.

Those who "just love to chat" implies "those who love to talk a lot", when in actual fact the threshold is so low as to being tending close to "those who talk at all". Substituting "on your" with "during the" would alleviate this issue.
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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #27 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 2:44pm
 
I take on board all your comments and indeed callers usage and needs will differ but it is only the plans that I have examined that benefit. It is also true that some callers may get caught out but in my examples all have a Virgin Mobile package for £5 per month not exceeding their 250 minute quota, other callers that were paying for calls unlimited on their land line are low users and it was not beneficial to them to pay the monthly fee as in some cases it worked out at £1.00 per call. This example will not work for all but it was beneficial to those call plans I looked at.
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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #28 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 3:15pm
 
bazzerfewi wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 2:44pm:
it was not beneficial to them to pay the monthly fee as in some cases it worked out at £1.00 per call.

For a BT user, a weekday daytime non-inclusive call to a 01/02/03 number costs £1.00 if it is just over 6½ minutes long. Many people would be shocked to learn that this is all you get for a Penalty Charge of £1. If the nine calls made each month were shorter than this then the unlimited package is indeed a waste of time. (Some may have been made at weekends, when these calls are free to all, or during the evening, when lower Penalty Charges apply - but we just use the simple case.)

When the option of making all calls from a mobile comes into the picture, the situation is further complicated. The fact that BT stands alone by not including calls to mobiles in its plans, naturally drives many customers away from using a BT landline at all.


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Re: BT reducing line rental
Reply #29 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 3:59pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 3:15pm:
bazzerfewi wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 2:44pm:
it was not beneficial to them to pay the monthly fee as in some cases it worked out at £1.00 per call.

For a BT user, a weekday daytime non-inclusive call to a 01/02/03 number costs £1.00 if it is just over 6½ minutes long. […]

This is incorrect. No weekday daytime non-inclusive call to a 01/02/03 number costs £1.00 exactly.

The minimum charge for a call is 33p and this applies for calls that last anything up to exactly 1 minute.
A call lasting anything from 1 minute and a part-fraction of a minute to exactly 2 minutes costs 45p.
A call lasting anything from 2 minutes and a part-fraction of a minute to exactly 3 minutes costs 57p.
A call lasting anything from 3 minutes and a part-fraction of a minute to exactly 4 minutes costs 69p.
A call lasting anything from 4 minutes and a part-fraction of a minute to exactly 5 minutes costs 81p.
A call lasting anything from 5 minutes and a part-fraction of a minute to exactly 6 minutes costs 93p.
A call lasting anything from 6 minutes and a part-fraction of a minute to exactly 7 minutes costs £1.05.
A call lasting anything from 7 minutes and a part-fraction of a minute to exactly 8 minutes costs £1.17.

All of the above are subject to whatever the tolerances in measurement of duration happen to be.
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