Hi Graham H,

It is not quite as simple as that. I was just talking in the same vein as the previous comment about what can be done technically. If you contact BT and ask them to set a diversion for a GN, they will want to charge for it as an added or star service. If you want a more intelligent process, for example diverting to a selected GN from a list on a sequential basis in order of precedence, or some such process, they will want to charge more for this "service", and they will probably push for you to have an NGN instead, claiming that it may be done much more easily for a NGN. This is not true. Technically it may be done just as easily for a GN or a NGN; it is just that they can make more  revenue from doing it for a NGN, since they originate and terminate most NGN calls.

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I concur with nearly all your views 101%.  I have always viewed this whole 0870 and 0845 move as a quite deliberate attempt by BT to subvert the superficial attempts of OFTEL over the years to provide alternative methods of making calls at lower prices.

To get around this BT invented a system where there is competition but it is only competition for the call recipients to get the best possible call price revenue and because this charge is so high nobody can then discount the call costs to any meaningful extent for the caller.

My opinion of the effectiveness of Ofcom's predecessor OFTEL is quite frankly unprintable but my attempts to pursue the issue with BT High Level Complaints and OFCOM 4 or 5 years ago proved that BT were simply shameless about the ripoff (they simply lied by claiming the extra 084x/087x call cost was down to the extra costs involved in setting up non geographic routing) and had no intention of doing anything about it.  OFCOM also appeared to be entirely in BT's pocket over this issue and claimed that there was a competitive market for the people receiving the calls and that I also didn't have to call these numbers if I didn't like them (obviously a lie when people like Surrey Police now use them for all contact apart from 999/112 calls).

But you are wrong in one respect though which is that clearly the water at BT has got too hot somewhere now as they now propose making 0870 and 0845 into ordinary priced national calls (by abolishing revenue share on these access codes) in their Ofcom response and also proposed that these should be charged at the same price by phone companies as any other geographic 01/02 call.  The loophole here though is that BT still suggest retaining 0844 and 0871 revenue share although they seem to have no justifiable case at all for this in respect of 0871 and only some case for continued 0844 revenue sharing provided that the use of this code is only allowed for data based  ISP traffic - i.e. their use for voice based doctors surgery traffic should be banned

So it has rather suited the main BT board to let 0870 grow like topsy while the matter remained in the dark like mushrooms but now it is out in the open the BT board doesn't seem to want to have to defend it.  But Ofcom still seems to want to defend 0845 and 0870 presumably because of all the very messy potential litigation between telephone companies and people like the Home Office and the Police that may ensure if 0845 and 0870 revenue kickbacks are now summarily axed. And as we know Oftel and especially its senior staff are  still basically in the pocket of Tessa Jowell and her other government cronies.

I agree NGM, things are probably worse than I indicated, but I was not attempting to define the degree of problems previously, only to comment on some aspects of the problems.

As you say, it is outrageous and anti-competitive of BT to prohibit you being able to divert using a cheaper call carrier. However, that is typical of what we have come to expect from BT, solely because the supposed regulator never does what they should do to stop these anti-competitive tricks.

What you could do of course is to purchase a diverter stand-alone product, which would then not incurr any charge for a star service, and could be used to divert via any carrier you choose. The only problem I believe you will find is that there are now no diverters approved by BEAB or whoever the current approver is for connection to the network. (This was yet another trick to destroy competition, to withdraw the possibility of official approval for these.) It may be difficult to buy one any longer in the UK since it may be actually illegal to sell them in the UK now. You might have to source it on the Internet.

If you do get one you would not be legally allowed to connect it to the PSTN, although of course in the circumstances people do so illegally, which is hardly surprising now that the possibility of approval has been taken away! Your only cost then is essentially the up-front cost of the diverter and its maintenance. Of course if you don't already have a second line that would be an additional cost which could tip the balance against your own diversion, but you could consider using a PAYG mobile permanently powered-up from the mains which would not incurr any additional line cost.

At a quick look there seem to be some other telcos offering diversion services, but it is not altogether clear which of them offers this for GNs, but one or two may be cheaper than BT?

A quick trawl came up with the following cos who offer diverter units:

http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture1/gida/supplier.html

http://www.woodtel.com/

http://www.design2000.com.au/home/home.html

On one site there is even a simple circuit to build your own!

http://www.hackcanada.com/blackcrawl/telecom/p50-09.html

Well NGM the Panasonic instrument way is one way to achieve a message being delivered with one line only for sure. However, the point is that usually companies or individuals having a need for diversion do not want the caller to realise that the call is being diverted. Properly designed diverters therefore present a constant ring tone to the caller until the call is answered at the remote location, so they cannot hear that they have been diverted. There is no way you can do that with the Pansonic approach.  They are aware that you have not answered and that they have left a message on your answering machine.

With all due respect though, with BT's service you are not actually dialling a call out on your own line, so it is understandable that it is a BT carried call internally. The process actually takes place at the exchange. The call does not even get to your line. It is diverted before that within the exchange I think you will find.

That is why I suggested looking at the competition. It seems there may be other telcos out there who are offering a similar service to BT but one might be cheaper? (Some PABXs will also divert, but you still need more than one line of course.)

Yes, that is all true NGM. If the Pansonic approach fits your purpose in the meantime then that is probably the best solution for you.

Non Geographic Man wrote.....

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Amen to that.....

PS ..and in case you don't think you could ever be so lucky, look at what has happened to AT&T   

But NGM, if the Panasonic device is no longer apparently available here if you look on the sites I have suggested and others which you could search for you may find an equivalent?