SAYNOTO0870.COM - Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,159

DesG

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 33

Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,055
Reply #240 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 12:04am

Quote:

I notice that O2, TMobile, Orange and Three have all remained stum. Either this is because they are incompetent or it is because unlike Vodafone they are not brazen enough to believe that they can actually find any way of justifying their current customer NTS scamming.

Please don't drag o2 in with the other mobile operators!

They are the ONLY company in the UK who include 0870 and 0845 numbers in their inclusive minutes. So please don't call them scammers, as they are actually the only hero in the whole NTS fiasco!

Cheers, Des.

Back to top

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,055
Reply #241 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 12:27am

DesG wrote on Dec 15^th, 2005 at 12:04am:

Please don't drag o2 in with the other mobile operators!

They are the ONLY company in the UK who include 0870 and 0845 numbers in their inclusive minutes. So please don't call them scammers, as they are actually the only hero in the whole NTS fiasco!

If you visit www.o2.co.uk/personal/choosetariff/0,,111,00.html you will see that they refuse to quote any of their tariff deals online and I feel sure the munificence you describe does not extend to their Pay as You Go tariffs?

I also note that they quote an 0871 number for their Sales line Shocked

Back to top

IP Logged

DesG

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 33

Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,055
Reply #242 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 12:51am

Quote:

DesG wrote on Dec 15^th, 2005 at 12:04am:

Please don't drag o2 in with the other mobile operators!

They are the ONLY company in the UK who include 0870 and 0845 numbers in their inclusive minutes. So please don't call them scammers, as they are actually the only hero in the whole NTS fiasco!

If you visit www.o2.co.uk/personal/choosetariff/0,,111,00.html you will see that they refuse to quote any of their tariff deals online and I feel sure the munificence you describe does not extend to their Pay as You Go tariffs?

I also note that they quote an 0871 number for their Sales line Shocked

I think you will find the link you provided provides a link to their tariffs? Are you complaining that they only detail the tariffs available on their website, on their website? If so, here is the link to the shop tariffs available by following the link you posted. You will notice they mention that 0870/0845/0800 numbers are included in inclusive minutes on the tariff sheet. http://flash.o2.co.uk/products/pdfs/O2_Calling_Plans.pdf (Yes, I know it isn't straightforward to find, but it is there and freely available.)

I hardly see the relevance that they charge you for making a call on a PAYG tariff, surely that is the point? I don't know how much they charge, or, if it is more or less than any other provider, but charging for a chargeable call hardly justifies dragging them into the scammer category.

I note that they provide an 0871 number and an 0870 number elsewhere for sales, not very cohesive. But again, as they are the only UK carrier that I know of who include 0870/0845 numbers in their inclusive calls packages, please cut them some slack Wink

Cheers, Des.

Back to top

IP Logged

idb

Supreme Member

Offline

Posts: 1,499
Miami, Florida, United States
Gender: male

Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,055
Reply #243 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 12:57am

An interesting read (a new response) at http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/sz/UKCTAIndepenrep... including:

<<
It is clear that there is a strong and vociferous lobby which is pressing Ofcom to abandon the current pricing of 0870 services and to bring the charging of 0870 in line with geographical charging. But it is also clear that this lobby, with its saynoto0870.com website is not representative of the mainstream views of consumers as measured by Ofcom’s consumer research. For example this research concludes¹⁸:

“Overall the qualitative and quantitative research indicated that consumers are looking for clarity in order to distil the confusion over call costs rather than being concerned about revenue sharing per se” (p16).

¹⁸ Number Translation Services: A Way Forward, report of key findings for two research studies conducted by HI Europe and MORI for Ofcom, 9/11/05
>>

And:

<<
The revenue share component of this model is important. It helps to fund the services provided by the service provider. It also helps, since it largely determines the price of the call, to match the value of the call to the caller with the value of the call to the service provider. Without this ability to price signal to the caller so as to filter out low value calls, service providers would not provide the range of services which they do and/or would make significantly greater use of call centres outside the UK.
>>

What a load of GARBAGE!! Are the people who write this stuff so completely stupid?

Back to top

« Last Edit: Dec 15^th, 2005 at 1:03am by idb »

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.

IP Logged

DesG

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 33

Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,055
Reply #244 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 1:07am

idb wrote on Dec 15^th, 2005 at 12:57am:

What a load of GARBAGE!! Are the people who write this stuff so completely stupid?

GARBAGE indeed, I would even go further, complete and utter £$%^OCKS.

And these people are selling NGN solutions to the companies that end up ripping us off. No wonder so many gormless companies end up with 0870 with the gibberish these NGN suppliers spout. I am sure some companies still think they are doing us a favour by supplying an 0870 number!

Cheers, Des.

Back to top

IP Logged

idb

Supreme Member

Offline

Posts: 1,499
Miami, Florida, United States
Gender: male

Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,055
Reply #245 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 1:14am

DesG wrote on Dec 15^th, 2005 at 1:07am:

GARBAGE indeed, I would even go further, complete and utter £$%^OCKS.

And these people are selling NGN solutions to the companies that end up ripping us off. No wonder so many gormless companies end up with 0870 with the gibberish these NGN suppliers spout. I am sure some companies still think they are doing us a favour by supplying an 0870 number!

Cheers, Des.

Just like this one from Highway Robbery, sorry Highway Insurance:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/gl/HighwayInsuranc...

"providing improved services to customers"!!

Enjoy!

Back to top

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.

IP Logged

idb Supreme Member Offline Posts: 1,499 Miami, Florida, United States Gender:	Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,055 Reply #246 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 1:15am Response from Holiday Extras also worth a read: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/gl/HolidayExtras.p...
Back to top	As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages. IP Logged

DesG

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 33

Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,055
Reply #247 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 1:22am

idb wrote on Dec 15^th, 2005 at 1:15am:

Response from Holiday Extras also worth a read:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/gl/HolidayExtras.p...

Are we not lucky to have such 'helpful' companies around Shocked

Mind you, it confirms our views of a wholesale migration to 0871 by the 0870 users if the Ofcom proposals are implemented in their current form.

Anyone registered saynoto0871.com yet?

Cheers, Des.

Back to top

IP Logged

omy

Full Member

Offline

I came - I saw - I went
home.

Posts: 129

Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,055
Reply #248 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 7:47am

The arrogance of 'Holiday Extras' is breath-taking!
They DO really think that their customers 'appreciate' being ripped off on 0870, and threaten to migrate to 0871 to spite them!
What a lovely company to deal with - a barrage of emails to them saying they will not get business from us would be the thing, I reckon!

Back to top

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,055
Reply #249 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 8:34am

DesG wrote on Dec 15^th, 2005 at 12:51am:

I hardly see the relevance that they charge you for making a call on a PAYG tariff, surely that is the point?

No the point is what rate they charge for 084/7 call on PAYG compared to what they charge for 01/02 calls. Most other mobile companied go to endless lengths to hide these rates and they are usually utterly extortionate and way beyond the usual extra costs associated with routing calls to 04/7 numbers. Charges like 30p per minute at all times to 0870 numbers seem to be quite normal to 0870 with PAYG operators. Whereas their 01/02 charges normally drop right down after the first few minutes of calls a day or after spending so many pounds in the month with the company.

Thinking again of CarPhoneWarehouse the reason they are so keen to see the scam continue is not just the disgraceful charges to their mobile customers for calling their own customer service centre but the equivalent disgraceful charges that they levy on their customers for calling all other uk customer service centres too using 084/7 numbers.

Back to top

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,055
Reply #250 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 8:45am

omy wrote on Dec 15^th, 2005 at 7:47am:

The arrogance of 'Holiday Extras' is breath-taking!
They DO really think that their customers 'appreciate' being ripped off on 0870, and threaten to migrate to 0871 to spite them!
What a lovely company to deal with - a barrage of emails to them saying they will not get business from us would be the thing, I reckon!

I think more useful is a barrage of emails to Car Phone Warehouse where Mr Charles Dunstone is another cynic like Richard Branson who prefers to be seen as the cuddly loveable consumer's friend but is in fact another ruthless evil big business shark relying on spin and deception. Email Mr Dunstone directly at dunstonec@cpwplc.co.uk

Ask him how he can be selling the benefits of 01/02 inclusive call packages via TalkTalkk while sending submissions to Ofcom demanding that the great 084/7 ripoff and their exclusion from 01/02 calls packages mushrooms yet further.

See /www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/sz/TheLocalRadioCompany.pdf for the CPW submission.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Dec 15^th, 2005 at 8:48am by N/A »

IP Logged

AJR

Full Member

Offline

Posts: 107

Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,159
Reply #251 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 11:56am

Quite a few of the new responses have already been picked out for comments by idb and others. Anyway, the total of published responses has now reached 1,159. (There will be others that have not been published, of course.)

This is the link to the responses page:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/

And these are the new ones since the last list. (This may be the last list, unless it continues to increase significantly.)

BBC TV Licensing
Bennett A
Blake Dr. W B J
Butler J
Campbell G E
Carr P
Clark M
Clarvis S D
COLT
Cooper M
Cordell K
Cristmas L
Crofts P
Davies Mike
Dawson M
Diamond G C
Digby J
Drew D
Drukker M
Dryurgh I
Earthy R P
Elite Telecom
Elston T M
Etherington B
Evans L V
Farrugia J
Glazerman G
Greenhalgh P and A
Gupta S
Hamill C
Harris D
Harrison P
Hatton-Evans R
Hayns D
Hensby R L
Hewitt G
Highway Insurance
Holiday Extras
Homer P
Honeyball S
Hoskins R M
Hudson M
Inner Enigma
ISPA
Keane P
Kilvert T
Laming P
Lewis H
Lexgreen Services Ltd
Lilly S
Lloyd D
Lyle D F
Mace D
Mayhew J
Murphy B
Murphy W
N Sim
Name Withheld 184
Name Withheld 185
Name Withheld 186
Name Withheld 187
Name Withheld 188
Network for Online Commerce
Oliver J
Parker M
Parkey F
Parkhouse J
Payton M
Pinfield M
Prescott B
Proudfoot K and A
Radio Advertising Clearance Centre
Ray B
Richards M
Robinson M
Roy W
Satnoianu R
Smith J F G
Solomon D
Storer P E
Sullivan J W
Taylor R
Telecom One
Teleconnect UK
Teletext
Telewest
The Carphone Warehouse Group PLC
The Centre for Ethical Economics
Thomas A
Thomas J
Thraveson-Lambert W J
Truscott J B
Trusler D G M
UKCTA
UKCTA Indepen Report
Upton D
van den Arend J J
W R Williams Travel Ltd
Wadsworth A
Walker P J
West H
Williams D
Williams O L
Williams P D
Wolffe L

Back to top

IP Logged

NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,159
Reply #252 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 12:12pm

COLT looks worth a read. I'm sure that wasn't there last night.

Just read it. More claptrap. Apparently we the customers do not properly understand the issues and so are not in a fit position to comment. Then there is a whole load of disgraceful stuff about the marvellous national presence an 0870 number gives and that unlike an 0871 number it can be dialled internationally (no mention is made of the fact that there is no trouble dialling 01 or 02 numbers internationally though).

The problem with migrating to 0871 and there "not being enough numbers" referred to in other telco responses is also revealed by a comment in this document. Essentially because 0871 number allocations are banded between 6p and 10p a minute it would appear that there won't be enough high priced 10p per minute at all times 0871 numbers. So it appears that COLT basically expects all current 0870 users to move to 10p per minute 0871, in spite of all the rubbish spouted about the NGN conveniences of never having to change your phone number. Roll Eyes

And didn't Ofcom tell us it thought that at least 50% of 0870 users would stay put. There is also no mention of an 0844 number shortage. Oh dear the planned behaviour of the scamsters is even worse than I thought.

The usual old drivel about company's basing their entire business plans on using these numbers. But didn't Ofcom try to tell us that basically no one actually made any serious money out of using and 0870 number. Huh

Still at least Daniel will be happy. It looks as though this site could be in business giving out the geographic alternatives for years to come. Although I expect many of these telcos will implement national dialling only or voip only routed solutions to prevent this.

This disgraceful immoral industry has been allowed to grow up and now it protests it would be an outrage for the scamming to stop. But there is no comparison with say the USA and the fact that this NTS scam industry does not even exist there.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Dec 15^th, 2005 at 12:27pm by N/A »

IP Logged

AJR

Full Member

Offline

Posts: 107

Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,159
Reply #253 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 3:01pm

A number of interesting points made by BBC TV Licensing, including this:

"In paragraph 1.18 of the consultation document (‘NTS: A Way Forward’), it is proposed that
public bodies should only use NTS numbers if equal prominence is given to a geographic
alternative. As stated above, TV Licensing does not consider that it constitutes a public body
for the purpose of the consultation document.

"In any event, it is TV Licensing’s view that it would be impractical and would result in more
confusion for the customer if TV Licensing were required to provide duplicate numbers.
Moreover, considerable costs would be incurred in adding geographic numbers to the
intelligent call router in order to achieve the required functionality."

Odd that what is effectively a tax collection agency does not consider itself to be a public body!

Also interesting that, unlike many others who support 0870 numbers, it does not think that "adding geographic numbers to the intelligent call router" would be impossible, just costly.

Back to top

IP Logged

DesG

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 33

Re: Responses to Ofcom consultation hit 1,055
Reply #254 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 11:23pm

Quote:

DesG wrote on Dec 15^th, 2005 at 12:51am:

I hardly see the relevance that they charge you for making a call on a PAYG tariff, surely that is the point?

No the point is what rate they charge for 084/7 call on PAYG compared to what they charge for 01/02 calls. Most other mobile companied go to endless lengths to hide these rates and they are usually utterly extortionate and way beyond the usual extra costs associated with routing calls to 04/7 numbers. Charges like 30p per minute at all times to 0870 numbers seem to be quite normal to 0870 with PAYG operators. Whereas their 01/02 charges normally drop right down after the first few minutes of calls a day or after spending so many pounds in the month with the company.

I decided to look up what they charge on o2 PAYG.

0845, 0800 and 0870 numbers are charged at 35p per min in the daytime, 10p per min in the evenings and 5p per min at weekends. Daytime is 07:30 to 19:30 Monday to Friday. Weekend is Midnight Friday to Midnight Sunday. Evening at all other times.

This is not hidden away anywhere, it is listed in the PAYG tariff description. I don't know how it compares to other PAYG tariffs, but it seems clear and open to me, definitely not in the scammer category.

Cheers, Des.

Back to top

IP Logged