Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
SAYNOTO0870.COM

<---- Back to main website

 
Home Help Search Login Register

Pages: 1 2 3 ... 6
Send Topic Print
Ofcom consultation - 070 acceptable use (Read 59,369 times)
idb
Supreme Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1,499
Miami, Florida, United States
Gender: male
Ofcom consultation - 070 acceptable use
Oct 26th, 2005 at 2:54pm
 
URGENT RESPONSE SUGGESTED: Ofcom Consultation - 070 Rip-Off, including Patientline scandal

Another Ofcom consultation:

<<
Ofcom has today published proposals to amend its guidelines on the acceptable use of 070 numbers.  The closing date for responses to the consultation is 8 November 2005.
Personal Numbering - Proposed amendment to guidance on acceptable use of 070 numbers

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/personal_numbering/
>>

Modified Nov 2, 2005 - contributors should consider responding to this consultation, particularly wrt the Patientline scandal and the continued abuse of 070 numbers. Note the closing date of November 8. See posts below (NGM) for further details.

~ Thread title edited by Dave ~
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 26th, 2005 at 6:37pm by Dave »  

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.
 
IP Logged
 
Dave
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 9,901
Yorkshire
Gender: male
Re: Ofcom consultation - 070 acceptable use
Reply #1 - Oct 26th, 2005 at 2:59pm
 
8 November, I thought this was a mistake! That's 2 weeks to respond!  Shocked
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
mc661
Senior Member
****
Offline


Habitual FOI requester.

Posts: 432
West-Norfolk
Gender: male
Re: Ofcom consultation - 070 acceptable use
Reply #2 - Oct 26th, 2005 at 10:07pm
 
according to the annexe 2

We will normally allow ten weeks for responses to consultations on issues of general interest.

Hmm seems the 070 problems isnt of general interest.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
joe65
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 143
Re: Ofcom consultation - 070 acceptable use
Reply #3 - Oct 26th, 2005 at 10:45pm
 
Hmmm....    or is it rather to  let the acceptable abuse continue ?
Back to top
 

There are those who count,&&An' those who cann't,&&An' those who count  on the both of 'em.
 
IP Logged
 
Tanllan
Supreme Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 797
Gender: male
Re: Ofcom consultation - 070 acceptable use
Reply #4 - Nov 1st, 2005 at 12:41pm
 
Hi all.

In the Ofcom consultation on 070 numbers and "acceptable use" at http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/personal_numbering/pn.pdf it may be worth looking in page 12, para 9:
Recent examples of services that may not fit the traditional mode of Personal Numbering, but which Ofcom considers to be legitimate Personal Numbering Services include:
1  070 numbers allocated to users of internet chat rooms who want to talk to new acquaintances without divulging their real phone numbers;
2  070 numbers allocated solely for the purpose of selling, e.g., a car through a magazine;

3  
070 numbers allocated to hospital patients so that they can have their own number for the duration of their stay (but not where a generic 070 number is used that requires further PINs - see paragraph 15 below).

Please bear in mind that Ofcom counts the cover as page 0 and so the pdf page numbering still does not match the printed page number. But would any of you expect anything else involving Ofcom's use of numbers?
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 1st, 2005 at 6:32pm by Tanllan »  
 
IP Logged
 
NonGeographicalMan
Ex Member


Re: Ofcom consultation - 070 acceptable use
Reply #5 - Nov 1st, 2005 at 6:28pm
 
Quote:
3  070 numbers allocated to hospital patients so that they can have their own number for the duration of their stay (but not where a generic 070 number is used that requires further PINs - see paragraph 15 below?


Tanllan I think you needed to mark point 3 in Red and Italics rather than in Navy (which sadly looks the same as black) as you have done.

The whole point of this disgraceful hurried 2 week Ofcom consultation (compared to the luxurous 8 months they had to consider our responses to the last NTS consultation that closed in January), which deliberately tries to look utterly boring, is in fact as a smoke screen to secretly sign off Ofcom's continuing use of 070 numbers at 50p per minute by Patientline so long as Patientline gives each patient a direct individual 070 number to the phone at their bedside. If you read this other announcement by Ofcom a couple of weeks ago announcing they are going to give Patientline another 6 months to achieve direct dial to the bedside numbering at loads of their hospitals the whole ghastly Ofcom plot to merely sign off and codify another major abuse of the general public becomes all too frighteningly clear.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/bulletins/comp_bull_index/comp_bull_ccases/closed_all/cw...

This is in fact the Ofcom consultation to sign off contined Patientline scamming at 50p per minute as being ok and you have only 1 week left  to respond out of less than two weeks.


I will be sending some emails to the national newspaper journalists who originally covered the issue to draw their attention to the matter and to get them to publish the email addreses for responses in their newspapers.  I will also be emailing all the MPs who have signed the anti 0870 motion in the House of Commons plus Dr Howard Stoate who certainly should care about this matter.

I looked at this consultation when it was published Tanllan, because of the possible Patientline angle, and I completely missed this dissgraceful sneaky attempt to sign off the Patientline scam tucked away in the small print. Shocked Roll Eyes

Yet again Ofcom fights shy of doing the right thing which would be to at least force these scammers to move to an 084 or 087 range and to say 070 PNS rules have been abused because customers do not have a choice about whether or not to use an 070 number to get access to phone calls in hospital (given the ban on mobile phones) and because the numbers almost certainly are not portable by the patient to redirect to their home phone or mobile phone when they leave hospital.  So as the 070 number is not totally under the customer's control it fails to meet the entire policy objectives of 070 numbers.  Unless of course Ofcom are allowed to change the rules as they propose. Roll Eyes Angry

Please respond now slating this appallingly cynical behaviour by the telecoms scammers friend - OfcoN! And also make sure to tell any friends or relatives that you think may be prepared to respond  to it as well.

With this latest appalling attempt to fail to serve uk citizens and consumer who use NHS hospitals Ofcom show once again which side they are really on.  And its certainly not the uk citizen and consumer. Shocked Shocked Shocked
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 1st, 2005 at 6:29pm by N/A »  
 
IP Logged
 
Tanllan
Supreme Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 797
Gender: male
Re: Ofcom consultation - 070 acceptable use
Reply #6 - Nov 1st, 2005 at 6:34pm
 
Tks NGM

Colour (and color!) changed.

And thank you for the valuable input.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
NonGeographicalMan
Ex Member


URGENT - Ofcom to Legalise Pat'ntline 50p/min Scam
Reply #7 - Nov 1st, 2005 at 7:52pm
 
Can I suggest everyone reading this message immediately sends an email to the new Ofcom Consultation Champion, Vicki Nash, demanding that this consultation deadline be extended by 8 weeks to the customary 10 weeks for all other normal Ofcom consultations (as they admit is the case in this consultation docment) as the matters are of sufficently major public importance (despite mysteriously being hidden away on Page 14 of the document) in that the Consultation proposals appear to allow the legalisation of Patientline's previously illegal use of 50p/min 070 scam numbers for patients in hospitals, so long as Patientline implement direct dial numbers to the bedside.

Tell Ms Nash that it is totally inexcusable for the consultation to be truncated and slipped through on the quiet.  I suggest the Subject of your email should be something like:-

"Only 2 weeks allowed for Ofcom Consultation to on 070 Numbers Consultation Involving Patientline"


The Ofcom Consultation Champion is now:-  

vicki.nash@ofcom.org.uk  

Also make sure to cc your email to all of the following at Ofcom:-"


ruth.gibson@ofcom.org.uk
stephen.carter@ofcom.org.uk
david.currue@ofcom.org.uk
kip.meek@ofcom.org.uk
ed.richards@ofcom.org.uk
millie.banerjee@ofcom.org.uk
ian.hargreaves@ofcom.org.uk
richard.hooper@ofcom.org.uk
sara.nathan@ofcom.org.uk
stephanie.liston@ofcom.org.uk
claudio.pollack@ofcom.org.uk
gareth.davies@ofcom.org.uk
matt.peacock@ofcom.org.uk
colette.bowe@ofcomconsumerpanel.org.uk
bob.twitchin@ofcomconsumerpanel.org.uk
consumerpanel@ofcom.org.uk

This includes all members of the Ofcom Board, their Communications Director and the Ofcom Consumer Panel.

Hopefully this may make Ofcom think again about closing the consultation document next Tuesday, after consulting for less than 2 weeks.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 2nd, 2005 at 2:19pm by N/A »  
 
IP Logged
 
NonGeographicalMan
Ex Member


Re: Ofcom consultation - 070 acceptable use
Reply #8 - Nov 2nd, 2005 at 12:13am
 
Here is my email and will I think prompt some shall we say interesting reactions.

I am still left utterly stunned that Ofcom thought they could pull off this stunt of legalising Patientline via a devious 14 page consultation where the fact that hospital 070 services are even part of the plans is only mentioned on Page 12 of 14.  Ofcom just get worse and worse in their quite deliberate deviousness and cynicism.  But who is going to be able to force them to start acting in the interests of uk citizens and consumers? Shocked

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 01 November 2005 23:58
To: vicki.nash@ofcom.org.uk
Cc:stephen.carter@ofcom.org.uk;david.currie@ofcom.org.uk
Subject: Ofcom to Allow 50p per Minute Patientline Scam to be Legalised via Rushed & Secretive 13 Day Consultation

Dear Ms Nash,

I feel I must write to you in your role as Ofcom Consultation Champion to protest in the strongest possible terms about a Consultation published by Ofcom only 6 days ago on 26th October and which closes in just another week's time.  This means that instead of lasting a standard 10 weeks for Ofcom Consultations this Consultation is being railroaded through by Ofcom in an unlucky for some 13 days.  Furthermore this is a Consultation for which there has been no press release and for which there is no Plain English Summary available on your website.  Yet this 13 day consultation is related to another variant of Non Geographic Numbers (NGNs) for which Ofcom is currently in the midst of a 10 week consultation for NGN numbers which begin 084 and 087.

What is this mysterious rushed 13 day Ofcom consultation that is so urgent? www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/personal_numbering/pn.pdf ).  Well if you read Pages 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 out of 14 pages you wouldn't think it was really about anything very interesting at all as it makes reference to some rather obscure matters known as General Conditions of Entitlement, Range Holders, Resellers and End Users.  Gosh this does seem like one of those really dull and turgid Ofcom Consultation documents that one could consign quite happily to the nearest waste paper bin.  Surely there is nothing meaty here such as for instance the proposal to keep charging 0845 callers premium non standard call prices for four more years, whilst returning 0870 numbers to being charged the same way as 01 and 02 numbers in say 18 months time, that is contained within your other much better publicised current NGN consultation document.

But wait tucked away on Page 12 of 14 is Proposed Revised Guidance Point 9 which states "Recent examples of services that may not fit the traditional mode of Personal Numbering, but which Ofcom considers to be legitimate Personal Numbering Services include":-

sub point3:- "070 numbers allocated to hospital patients so that they can have their own number for the duration of their stay (but not where a generic 070 number is used that requires further PINs)

All of a sudden one realises that a well known uk company called Patientline has been operating services of precisely the kind described in Revised Guidance Point 9 Sub Para 3, except that Patientline historically required callers to be connected to the patient at the bedside by having to call a general 070 Patientline customer service centre number to get a Pin number for the patient concerned before then ringing another automated 07 number and entering a Pin before then finally being connected to the patient's bedside.  So could all this I now begin to ask myself have anything to do with another obscure Ofcom announcement called an Update Note (and one of four or five announcements a day that Ofcom often sends me and other people on its circulation list) issued on 19th October 2005 and referring to something Ofcom called an "Own Initiative Investigation against Patientline Limited about misuse of Personal Numbers". And this announcement tells us that Ofcom has strangely enough decided to extend an original deadline for bringing in direct dial to the patient bedside (instead of via the call centre and PIN system where Patientline clocked up another minute or two at 50p per minute) from 13th December 2005 to 13th June 2006 and that is after Ofcom had already granted another 6 months extension to Patientline on this deadline way back on 13th June 2005.

Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 2nd, 2005 at 2:20pm by N/A »  
 
IP Logged
 
NonGeographicalMan
Ex Member


Re: Ofcom consultation - 070 acceptable use
Reply #9 - Nov 2nd, 2005 at 12:20am
 
Continued/...........................................

So now it all begins to make sense and what we actually appear to have here is Ofcom rushing through in am extremely secretive and poorly publicised Consultation a proposal to legalise Patientline's widely vilified 50p per minute charge for relatives of patients in hospital that need to be contacted in the weekday daytime, a charge which cannot be avoided because mobile phone use in NHS hospitals is conveniently banned.  And why is it that Patientline can go on charging this widely condemned 50p per minute rate?  Why it is because Ofcom has now conveniently decided to retrospectively change its regulations for 070 personal numbers that previously banned the use of the numbers in this way by Patientline so that Patientline will now be conveniently acting within the telecoms regulations.

But I am puzzled when Ofcom's statutory duties and principles stated on its own website ( www.ofcom.org.uk/about/sdrp/ ) state that "it shall be the principal duty of Ofcom to further the interests of citizens in relation to communication matters and to further the interests of consumers in relevant markets" as to how this action by Ofcom can be helping citizen consumers, especially when Ofcom also does not be fulfilling its other main principle to promote competition for citizen consumers where appropriate.  But here we have Patientline running a monopoly 50p per minute phone service in NHS hospitals with no competition and in a manner that seemingly previously appeared to breach the National Telephone Number Plan and Ofcom's General Conditions of Entitlement for Range Holders and Resellers but which Ofcom is now proposing to change its regulations to legitimise.

I feel I must legitimately ask how a consultation potentially adversely affecting the interests of millions of hospital patients a year and that merely now codifies as legitimate a call rate of a whopping  £30 an hour for making a phone call to a fixed phone line in a hospital (something that I can do on my own home fixed line phone to any uk number starting 01 or 02  for just 3p for 1 hour) can be rushed through by Ofcom in only 13 days instead of its usual 10 weeks, and also without a press release announcing it and without the publication of a Plain English Summary?  I feel sure that as Ofcom Consultation Champion you may perhaps share some of those concerns as I am sure various members of the national press (who have previously covered the Patientline story) will?

Lastly I must point out that when I received one of your many email Update messages a few days ago I did spot a document about varying operating conditions of 070 numbers and I was conscious that Patientline used such numbers. However as I only had time to read the one page consultation summary document and as this made no mention at all of allowing a change to the conditions of 070 number use for hospital patients I made no connection with the Patientline issue.  So it is only because of a gentleman called Tanllan, who is a fellow member of the www.saynoto0870.com web discussion forum that I am even aware what this document is actually really all about and in a position to respond within the 13 day deadline.

In the circumstances I do hope that as Ofcom Consultation champion you will now be able to prevail upon the Board members of Ofcom to allow this important Ofcom Consultation to be extended to the normal 10 week period and also ensure that a press release is published and that a Plain English Summary of the whole 14 page document is made available.

Lastly I must express my concern that when this document is consulting about the use of a Non Geographic Number Series that effectively involves a large revenue share to Patientline that you have not been able to incorporate consultation into your currently running and well publicised consultation on revenue sharing for other classes of Non Geographic Number (especially those beginning 084 and 087) as I do not believe the underlying issues involved for these 07 PNS numbers are any different from those applicable to revenue sharing on 084 and 087 numbers.

I look forward to receiving your comments on this matter.

Regards,
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Dave
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 9,901
Yorkshire
Gender: male
Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline
Reply #10 - Nov 2nd, 2005 at 2:57pm
 
I agree, NGM. I'll have a look at the consultation document.

The question is why now? And why include such examples? What are most personal numbers used for? Are a significant amount used for hospital 'services'*? Roll Eyes

* I use this term very very loosely!
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
idb
Supreme Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1,499
Miami, Florida, United States
Gender: male
Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline
Reply #11 - Nov 2nd, 2005 at 4:31pm
 
I have sent an email to Ms Nash and Ms Gibson asking for the deadline to be extended. I want to respond to this condoc, however with the 0870 consultations taking up so much time, I can't devote much attention to the 070 scam at the moment even though it is just as serious.
Back to top
 

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.
 
IP Logged
 
NonGeographicalMan
Ex Member


Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline
Reply #12 - Nov 2nd, 2005 at 4:59pm
 
Quote:
I have sent an email to Ms Nash and Ms Gibson asking for the deadline to be extended. I want to respond to this condoc, however with the 0870 consultations taking up so much time, I can't devote much attention to the 070 scam at the moment even though it is just as serious.


But you have over a month yet for those consultations which need long responses.

This consultation only needs an email of about three  paras saying it is outrageous Patientline be allowed to use PNS 070 whether they have DDI dialling to the bedside or not.  Also query whether Patientline number are actually redirectable to home phones or mobile phones when you leave hospital.  If not they don't meet the requirements and should be forced to move to 09 which is for fixed line revenue sharing.

Of course it is outrageous they have cut the consultation to 13 days but it seems clear they aren't going to budge.

I suppose I should ask what the formal complaint procedure is about having a short consultation like this and then when I find out let you all know who to email.  The FSA have an excellent complaints process about their own staff and procedures but the Ofcom approach seems to be to fob off all such attempts to complain about how they operate.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 2nd, 2005 at 5:12pm by N/A »  
 
IP Logged
 
idb
Supreme Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1,499
Miami, Florida, United States
Gender: male
Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline
Reply #13 - Nov 2nd, 2005 at 5:10pm
 
Quote:
But you have over a month yet for those consultations which need long responses.
True, but as I start work in two weeks, I want the 0870 responses out of the way sooner rather than later.

Quote:
This consultation only needs an email of about  paras saying it is outrageous Patientline be allowed to use PNS 070 whether they have DDI dialling to the bedside or not.  Also query whether Patientline number are actually redirectable to home phones or mobile phones when you leave hospital.  If not they don't meet the requirements and should be forced to move to 09 which is for fixed line revenue sharing.
I made a similar point in my email.

Back to top
 

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.
 
IP Logged
 
Dave
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 9,901
Yorkshire
Gender: male
Re: URGENT RESPONSE REQD Ofcom and 070/Patientline
Reply #14 - Nov 2nd, 2005 at 5:44pm
 
Quote:
This consultation only needs an email of about three  paras saying it is outrageous Patientline be allowed to use PNS 070 whether they have DDI dialling to the bedside or not. [...]

But to have DDI will set a president for other scammers, err, communication providers, to do the same sort of thing in other fields. The flood gates are gradually being opened...

What's more, the basic idea of a PN is that the end-user is in charge of where it goes. It is a service provided to end-users [which often costs the caller a fortune]. How is the 'end-user', who is stuck in a hospital bed, able decide where they want the number to be pointed?

The examples of internet chat rooms and small-ads which give you a 070 PN allow you the end user to point it at whatever you want. You don't have that "choice" when in a hospital bed.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 6
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Forum Admin, Dave, bbb_uk, CJT-80, DaveM)

Website and Content © 1999-2020 SAYNOTO0870.COM. All Rights Reserved.
Written permission is required to duplicate any of the content within this site.

WARNING: This is an open forum, posts are NOT endorsed by SAYNOTO0870.COM,
please exercise due caution when acting on any info from here.


SAYNOTO0870.COM » Powered by YaBB 2.5.2!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2021. All Rights Reserved.


Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge