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SAYNOTO0870.COM › Main Forum › Geographical Numbers Chat › Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW

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Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW (Read 48,349 times)

farci

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Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW
Reply #15 - Sep 15^th, 2006 at 12:19pm

Bobbyboy wrote on Sep 15^th, 2006 at 10:21am:

Hi BBK

The issue in all this is we can talk till the cows come home but OFCOM have demonstrated they will do everything to uphold 0845 and 0870 numbers and charging at Premium rate while business do away with with landlines. Just bear in mind OFCOM has all the time in the world. Dont also forget that OFCOM came into in 2003 while the Misleading Advertising Directive was in 1988.

The question is what do yourselves want to do about it?

I agree - less talk (which we're quite good at on this site!) and more action....

Using the excellent http://www.writetothem.com/ I have e-mailed the following missive to the 7 Euro MP's who represent Scotland:

"The Universal Service Directive (2005/22/EC) requires member states to ensure transparent and up-to date information on applicable prices and tariffs of publicly available telephone services to consumers.

In UK non-geographical 0845 and 0870 numbers are advertised as ‘local’ and ‘national’ rate respectively even although this tariff distinction no longer exists. More to the point consumers are misled into thinking calls to these numbers are cheaper than using geographical equivalents.

The opposite is the case. 0845 calls cost approx 4p/min and 0870 cost 8p/min and these numbers are widely used by large organisations who obtain a revenue share from their telecom providers. Most consumers now benefit from an inclusive call allowance with their telecom supplier but these non geographic numbers are always excluded.

By not making a tariff announcement before the call starts, consumers are being misled into thinking they are ‘lo call’ when by their nature – usually to a call centre – they will last for some time and result in a high charge.

I request you raise this matter with the Information Commissioner. I would like to know why he has taken no action against Ofcom as they have not ensured telecom companies inform consumers that these numbers are in fact premium rate"

Perhaps others could use this text, correct it or otherwise edit in e-mails to their representatives

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Bobbyboy

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Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW
Reply #16 - Sep 15^th, 2006 at 5:26pm

Hi BB

Thanks for the email to MEPs. I am due to write to OFCOM askin why they missed out issues in their consultation. They seem to want to attack me rather then deal with the content of my letter. Last time they threaten to not respond claiming if there are new issues regardless of the fact they are and even if they were mentioned to them OFCOM has failed to answer. The approach OFCOM now is using is fustrate and delay because they have no answers. If they they had nothing to hide they would answer with clarity, eveidence, names, date and time.

For members I like to share that OFCOM uses the ploy "consultation". They have been having this ploy for the last 3 years. In their letter to me 8th August 2006 there way forward was 0800 at free, 084 at 5p/min from BT line, 087 10p from BT line Grin

It is laughable that is all they come up with.

They claimed it would cost £100million if Businesses had to comply with the law. When I put it in fact cost consumers £600 million on a 3 hour daily call - no answer. This was not in the consultation - why?

Secondley OFCOM failed to consult what Businesses themselves (their staff) have confussed have told me that Consumers detest 0845 and 0870 numbers when they are informed and paying 6p or 10p / min. and in my own investigation informed consumers that all Busnesses that have 0845, 0870 line have land line, but that Bunisess actually get a "payback" and profit out the consumer. So why was this not in the Consultantion.

In the Consultation it was not mentioned or I did not see that Businesses are to comply with the M A Directive and by failing to disclose before hand the cost of that call or misleading consumers the cost of that call was in breach of the M A Directive and Misrep. Act. Nor was it put what action OFCOM has taken with evidence and against who, when and where and dates.

The Consultation has failed to mention that OFCOM has failed to take any action against Buinesses that have not complied with the law, or potect the consumer , instead trying to potect Premium rate charging on 0845, 0870 numbers so Business can make money at the consumers expense.

The point here - is not there was a consultation - but how the consultation was geared and what it excluded. Further that those taking part was not the above.

Any one wishing to use what I put above and also wish to write to OFCOM and MEP please use the above freely.

Bobby

« Last Edit: Sep 15^th, 2006 at 5:31pm by Bobbyboy »

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kk Senior Member Offline Posts: 354 Gender:	Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW Reply #17 - Sep 15^th, 2006 at 10:11pm Hi Farci and or bobbyboy I can't find "The Universal Service Directive (2005/22/EC)" in my law database. Is your ref correct? I did find: Decision No 2/2004 (2005/22/EC) of the joint veterinary committee set up under the Agreement. between the European Community and the Swiss Confederation on .......
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Bobbyboy Newbie Offline Posts: 19	Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW Reply #18 - Sep 16^th, 2006 at 9:17am Hi KK The referance I have for the Universal Service Directive (202/02/EC) of the European Parliment and the Council of 7th March 2002 OJ L 108 24.4.2002 Bobby
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bbb_uk

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Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW
Reply #19 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 11:22am

Well back on the 19th September I sent the EU the following (bear in mind that their online form does have a limited number of characters for which I had to make several amendments to reduce the number of characters allowed:-

Quote:

I would be grateful if this could be passed on to the relevant person/department most able to answer my query.

I would like to ask for your opinion about UK telephone numbers beginning 0844, 0845, 0870, 0871.

Here in the UK the above telephone numbers are NOT charged the same as a normal number because the company & government department using these numbers can, & in most cases do, earn a revenue from anyone calling these numbers which can vary but can be around 4pence per minute (ppm).

Due to the fact that these type of numbers can earn any company or UK Government department using them to receive payment (ie a revenue) for every minute us citizens call these numbers, they have been extremely popular and are very common numbers now. In fact following the introduction of the FoI Act 2000, it turned out that some UK Government departments are earning £1,000+ per year from us citizens calling these numbers.

The main problem with these type of numbers is that despite them being premium rate numbers (due to the revenue sharing), Ofcom, The Office of Fair Trading, Advertising Standards Authority, etc refuse to admit and deal effectively with the fact that most UK citizens are NOT aware that these numbers are in fact premium rate type numbers and that the company/government department using them earn a revenue from the use of such numbers and the fact that they are often misleadingly advertised by companies/government departments and UK telephone providers as local or national rate.

In fact, UK Telecom regulator Ofcom, admitted that us consumers have no idea how much these calls actually cost and the fact that they earn the company/government department using them money in return for every minute someone is calling them.

Here in the UK, we have ICSTIS (http://www.icstis.org.uk/) that is the regulator for premium rate numbers. ICSTIS only regulate any number beginning 09x but DON'T regulate 0844, 0845, 0870 & 0871 numbers.

To date, Ofcom and other government departments that are meant to be here to protect us consumers refuse to deal with any of these issues effectively and instead keep 'passing the buck' (ie refuse to have anything to do with it and ask that we contact another government department who in turn do the same) for not fully protecting us citizens.

Due to lack of call announcements, us citizens have no idea how much these calls actually cost and in fact they can vary from 8ppm to 40ppm for an 0870 number depending on telephone provider.

Bearing in mind everything I’ve mentioned, are UK companies/government departments, Ofcom (and other UK government departments that are meant to protect us citizens), contravening any EU directives such as misleading advertising, or not indicating the cost of these numbers despite the obvious fact that they are a premium rate number but just not regulated by premium rate regulator, ICSTIS?

I look forward to your response.

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bbb_uk

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Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW
Reply #20 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 11:24am

Below was their recent reply:

Quote:

Thank you for your communication concerning 084 and 087 telephone numbers in the UK.

You are quite right in pointing out that there are EU Directives concerning misleading advertising and indeed many other aspects of consumer protection.

A Directive, despite its name, is not directly applicable in each member state, but is "transposed" by each member state into its own national law. The provisions of EU directives therefore become part of national law and are therefore subject to national jurisdiction.

Precisely whether these telephone numbers contravene provisions of UK law is something that only a lawyer can decide. It appears that you have not had much luck in writing to government departments and so I would suggest that you write to the UK Consumer Association and perhaps to the media (in particular those which have programmes dealing with consumer issues). This will throw a spotlight on the problem. At the same time, I would suggest contacting your local MP to have the matter brought up in Parliament.

Once an EU Directive is agreed at EU level, the member states are given a deadline by which the provisions of the Directive must be incorporated into national law. It may well be that the telephone numbers concerned in this case "slip through" the legal provisions in force in some way, but you will need legal and consumer advice on this.

Yours sincerely

Jean-Louis COUGNON
Head of Division

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firestop Full Member Offline Do unto others, before they get a chance to do.... Posts: 164	Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW Reply #21 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 3:02pm EU, UK, whatever, all the piggies are munching from the same trough, whilst scratching each others backs (yes they are clever enogh to be multi-talented!), so they are all equally good at the "It's not me, Guv" scenario. We really do have the governance we deserve - bring on the revolution!!
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kk Senior Member Offline Posts: 354 Gender:	Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW Reply #22 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 6:20pm Hi firestop, I agree with what you have said, especially the last line. Lets start by getting out of the EU, that at least will save us some cash. What is the point of the EU. The reply was the usual bureaucratic “do nothing” reply to a well crafter and detailed letter sent by bbb_uk.
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Dave Global Moderator Offline Posts: 9,902 Yorkshire Gender:	Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW Reply #23 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 9:17pm bbb_uk, that response seems to be a pass the buck down the chain to the UK. So what's the point in EU directives? If a member state has enacted a law due to a directive, and it doesn't enforce that law, isn't it up to the EU to take action?
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bbb_uk

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Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW
Reply #24 - Nov 1^st, 2006 at 10:53am

Although their reply was pass the buck, I also believe they are right in that its up to each member state on how much they basically implement of a EU directive.

For example, when we (as in the UK) implemented the Working Time Directive which amonst some things dealt with how many hours were allowed to be worked in a working week (48hours I think), our government applied some exclusions to the likes of doctors, etc as they were worried there wasn't enough doctors to cover if they applied it to them them as well hence why they were excluded for so long. I believe now though that they've applied it to doctors now.

So it seems that our government can vary, apply exceptions, etc to any directive they choose to adopt from EU law.

I'm no lawyer but we need to know exactly which EU laws apply with regards to this and if the UK have adopted EU law on this subject (and whether it was adopted fully).

Even with all this information, it would probably mean taking the UK to EU court over it.

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kk Senior Member Offline Posts: 354 Gender:	Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW Reply #25 - Nov 1^st, 2006 at 11:07pm Hi bbb_uk Look at my post (#1) above, which I hope explains (in part) EU law vis a vis UK law.
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bbb_uk Global Moderator Offline Posts: 2,041	Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW Reply #26 - Nov 2^nd, 2006 at 10:32pm kk wrote on Nov 1^st, 2006 at 11:07pm: Hi bbb_uk Look at my post (#1) above, which I hope explains (in part) EU law vis a vis UK law. Thanks for that. Basically, to get anywhere someone has to take them (Ofcom, etc) to EU court?
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NGMsGhost

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Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW
Reply #27 - Nov 2^nd, 2006 at 11:00pm

bbb_uk wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2006 at 10:32pm:

Basically, to get anywhere someone has to take them (Ofcom, etc) to EU court?

In principle yes action in the EU courts is the only way if the EU doesn't choose to take action against the UK government itself (as it could if it was so minded). There are loads of directives that member states are not allowed to opt out of or have chosen not to opt out of and I don't think the UK opted out of any part of the misleading advertising directive.

An action in the EU courts wouldn't be worth it because geographic numbers will probably have disappeared and been replaced by Voip dialling names before the case ever gets to court.

Failing action in the EU courts I think several of us raising the issue with our Euro MPs and asking them to write to Ofcom suggesting they have failed in their duties to implement the misleading advertising directive might possibly put the frighteners up its greedy and self serving board members and Chairman just a little.

Also some of us explaining to our MPs that we feel Ofcom has not ensured proper price disclosure under Fair Trading legislation in the way that the Office of Fair Trading would have done if they had jurisdiction over this matter (they have taken action on matters as silly as cartels on the price of sunglasses). We could also ask our MPs to refer a complaint about Ofcom to the Parliamentary Ombudsman that they have not been correctly implementing the OFT powers they have been delegated. That would start to put the frighteners up Ofcom.

I also think we have to move the media message on a little from Daniel's far too simplistic "its 3p vs 7.5p per minute" to saying many uk households now have all 01/02 inclusive call plans for as little as £5 or so fixed a month that they have been sold as being all "uk landline calls" only to find that they are typically paying £10 to £15 a month (£120 to £180 a year) to call number starting 084 and 087 which are never disclosed as being non standard numbers when you dial them.

A senior Eurocrat like a senior Ofcom bureaucrat is only going to try to cover their back. Your MP or MEP if they are sympathetic enough to the cause may actually start to get somewhere with the issue. Especially if they spoke on the matter in the European Parliament as that would start to get the attention of the EU Commissioners and other senior staff.

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BenDToy

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Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW
Reply #28 - Nov 6^th, 2006 at 3:09pm

Firstly, and most importantly, I would like to congratulate and thank Bobbyboy for rising above all the posturing and pontificating that seems to characterise this site. I logged on today to post a request for a simple format letter that I could use to send to companies who use NGNs and to voice my frustration that no-one on the site seems able to direct us to a more direct and effective means of influence than just exchanging comments and arguing about semantics.
(This came about because yesterday I wrote to an insurance company who claim that "We have introduced an 0845 local call charge number to help reduce your call charges" and I had to start from scratch to compose the letter (although based on the information I have gleaned from this site). Wouldn't it be more useful if someone could provide a standard list of facts to combat this type of misinformation?)
Anyway, back to Bobbyboy. He has given me something to do, ie to write to MEPs and raise the matter with them, and I am delighted to have something specific. Instead of debating the accuracy and format of the response, can I just suggest that everybody should do as he suggests? Write a letter to your MEPs and raise the profile of the issue. Ignore all the detail, write as consumers, which is what we are. Complain that we are not being protected from the bad boys of business, and our teleophone bills are higher than they should be. I sent an email to all 9 of my local MEPs. One of them mailed back in less than an hour with a copy of what he had already sent to the Commissioner for Information & Media in Brussels, which is an almost verbatim extract from my email to him, which is pretty similar to the example from farci. For reference he is Brian Simpson, Labour MEP for the North West. Thanks and well done Brian. So how about we just get on and do it? I don't mean to offend the participants, there is some great stuff on here, but Bobbyboy has suggested something specific we can do, so shouldn't we just get on and do it? Get emailing and writing..please!

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NGMsGhost

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Re: 0870 0845 eu lAW
Reply #29 - Nov 6^th, 2006 at 3:31pm

Ben,

I'm glad to hear you have written to your MEPs and already prompted one into action. There are actually a lot of standard points that can be used in the sticky threads at the top of the forums.

Giving people a standard letter to send is not however helpful as the companies then see that as being an organised petition drummed up by a few activists rather than a widespread movement of spontaneous public opinion. MPs and MEPs in particular handle petition letters quite differently from real individual letters. Real letters get a reply while petition letters by and large don't or if they do they only get a standard response.

While you are feeling energetic you should also write to your MP if he is not amongst the 60 or so who signed the Parliamentary Early Day Motion against 0870 numbers (see below) also drawing his/her attention to the failings of Ofcom on the EU misleading advertising directive and enforcing UK Fair Trading legislation on telecoms price disclosure.

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=28872%09%09%09%09%09%09%09&...

You come to the site full of zeal but you don't realise that we got over 1,000 people to write in on the Ofcom consultaion called NTS Way Forward and Ofcom incredibly still allowed most of the 084/7 scamming to continue by the slight of hand of banning 0870 but allowing the continuation virtually unfettered of even more expensive 0871 numbers and slightly lower priced 0844 numbers.

If it was just as simple as make a noise and the scam would stop it would have gone away long ago. Unfortunately you must realise that some extremely important New Labour friends are behind this whole elaborate telecoms industry scam and the regulator has consistently bent over backwards to find any flimsy and pathetic excuses it can to stop the whole scam being closed down.

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