Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
SAYNOTO0870.COM

<---- Back to main website

 
Home Help Search Login Register

Pages: 1 2 3 ... 7
Send Topic Print
Spare a thought for UK businesses… (Read 80,530 times)
0870advice.com
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 20
Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Nov 9th, 2006 at 8:45am
 
10 years ago the cost of a national call was approx 8ppm via BT…

10 years ago many businesses were offered an 0870 number ‘for life’…

The telecoms market evolved, prices of national calls tumbled, competition opened up and eventually there was a huge delta between the cost of a national call and the cost of calling an 0870 number… In turn, this opened up the opportunity for revenue share and the possibility to fund network level services.

Clearly there was a need to address this ‘delta’ and to improve price transparency for the consumer…

However, what have we got ?  A complete mess !  Ofcom ends revenue sharing on 0870 and introduces a new 0370 range for migration… what does this ‘actually’ mean to consumers, businesses and telcos ?

Are consumers going to benefit – doubtful… faced with the cost of setting up and promoting new numbers are businesses really going to choose 0370 ?  More likely there will be a mass migration to 0871 (at 10ppm)… which is not good news for anybody !

Are businesses going to benefit – absolutely not !  Just for a moment consider the pain, effort and cost involved in setting up and promoting new contact numbers to consumers and suppliers – updating websites, re-printing brochures, letterheads, business cards, signage etc.  Potentially, this will costs businesses tens of thousands of pounds – are they then going to migrate to 0370 and start paying for calls received ?

Are telcos going to benefit – not really… The fact is whatever NTS range businesses use telcos will take a margin – whether it’s 0800, 0844, 0845, 0870, 0871 or even 0370… the one thing we can be fairly sure of is that most businesses will not revert back to geographic numbers and pay for in-house equipment to replace their network-level services.

So… who actually benefits from these Ofcom proposals ?

We’re on no-one’s side here… we just want to try and make sure businesses are informed and aware of what viable options they have going forward.

If you’re one of the 600,000 UK businesses that currently use 0870 numbers and are concerned about the Ofcom proposals visit www.0870advice.com for more info.

Cheers,
0870Advice
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
idb
Supreme Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1,499
Miami, Florida, United States
Gender: male
Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #1 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 10:19am
 
Yes, it's a real shame that UK businesses, so keen on exploiting customers by using premium rate numbering for basic and essential services, may have to change their ways. Perhaps you should look at how customer service is carried out in north America and the complete absence of these numbering regimes that are simply designed to extract revenue from the consumer.

UK businesses, government and non-profits that use these numbers deserve no sympathy whatsoever. Apart from ripping-off the UK consumer, those of us that live overseas fully understand the true difficulty of NGNs.

The UK numbering scheme, like the regulator that supposedly protects us, is an utter disgrace and for a so-called economic power to persist with this system is frankly laughable.

I would prefer to spare a thought for the long-suffering public rather than the likes of Sky, the DVLA and the NatWest bank.
Back to top
 

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.
 
IP Logged
 
Heinz
Supreme Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1,362
Essex
Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #2 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 11:24am
 
0870advice.com wrote on Nov 9th, 2006 at 8:45am:
If you’re one of the 600,000 UK businesses that currently use 0870 numbers and are concerned about the Ofcom proposals visit www.0870advice.con for more info.

Good grief!  600,000 business!

That's at least 599,990 with which I won't deal and ten with which I have to deal but which I won't phone.

Never realised it was that many ripping us off!
Back to top
 

After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015
WWW  
IP Logged
 
BillH
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 29
Gender: male
Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #3 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 11:47am
 
"Are businesses going to benefit – absolutely not !  Just for a moment consider the pain, effort and cost involved in setting up and promoting new contact numbers to consumers and suppliers – updating websites, re-printing brochures, letterheads, business cards, signage etc.  Potentially, this will costs businesses tens of thousands of pounds "

No whinges 10 years ago when changing 0870 caused the same?

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
BillH
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 29
Gender: male
Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #4 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 11:54am
 
From their site:

"Clearly, Ofcom’s proposals mean that any business that currently generates income through 0870 numbers will soon lose this revenue stream and instead be charged for calls received.

Therefore, those businesses will need to choose between keeping their existing 0870 numbers and paying a charge for calls received or introducing new contact numbers.

Potentially, this decision will depend on the pain, effort and cost involved in promoting new contact numbers on websites, brochures, other printed material, signage etc.

If the choice is to look at migrating away from 0870 then a number of viable options are available from freephone to premium rate and even reverting back to 01/02 geographic numbers.

This decision may well depend on whether businesses have (and rely on) network level services such as call queuing, IVR or call recording.  If this is the case, any move back to geographic numbers will have to include budget for replacing these services with in-house equipment."


Aaaah!
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
bbb_uk
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2,041
Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #5 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 11:58am
 
0870advice.com wrote on Nov 9th, 2006 at 8:45am:
We’re on no-one’s side here… we just want to try and make sure businesses are informed and aware of what viable options they have going forward.
Interesting!!  So you're on no one's side?  In that case you are not related in anyway to a Communication Provider (CP) www.goldennumbers.com?  It is my belief that the website you mention is related/owned by CP in someway!!

This kind of thing is mentioned every now and then by members who work/own a CP but they generally stop posting after a while.

There are legitimate reasons for having an 08 number like IVR, call routing, etc to save having expensive in-house equipment hence why I agree big companies, government departments, etc that operate from more than one call centre may have a need for an 0845 but other number ranges are used purely to earn revenue without, in most cases, the customer (us consumers) being aware of it.

What I object to is the use of these numbers to gain revenue without us consumers being aware of it and the fact they are misleading us consumers stating (like you do) that 084x is local rate and 087x is national rate.  It's funny how you are fully aware that local/national rate no longer applies but yet your website still refers to them as being local/national rate.

Not only are you misleading us end consumers but also your customers (businesses, etc using these NTS numbers) by stating that consumers only get charged so-called local/national rate when calling these numbers are charged higher (significantly higher in some cases) compared to normal geographical local/national rate (ie those beginning 01 or 02).

Here take this example:

Say you have two companies in direct competition with each other and both offer same services at same prices, etc with the exception of the contact number.  One uses a 09x number costing 7p/min and the other using a 0870 also costing 7p/min. 
 
Now despite both companies having a contact number costing 7p/min which one is likely to attract more business?

Simple, the company having the 0870 because many consumers aren't aware that they are ringing a premium rate number when they ring an NTS number.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
bbb_uk
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2,041
Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #6 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 12:15pm
 
You state on your website, 0870advice:-

Quote:
Clearly, Ofcom’s proposals mean that any business that currently generates income through 0870 numbers will soon lose this revenue stream and instead be charged for calls received.


Where is your proof that companies will be charged for calls received?  I agree that for those companies using call routing, IVR, etc may have to pay monthly/annual fee, etc for these services (line rental so-to-speak) but why should they be charged for receiving calls on this number?  Simply so the underlying CP can still take their massive cuts.

For example, let's take CP, www.goldnumbers.com that charge businesses, etc wanting one of their 0845 (again misleadingly advertised as local rate) numbers but are expected to pay 3p/min for every call they receive but yet there are many other teleco's out there that don't charge for incoming calls at all.

All I want is for us consumers to be fully informed that NTS numbers are in fact premium rate numbers (because they cost more than geographical numbers) albeit smaller premium rate compared to 09x which can cost upto £1.50p/min (from a BT landline) because if this was to happen then consumers would complain and companies would be forced to use lower NTS numbers and/or the new 03x number range.

Of course companies don't like to admit they are receiving revenue from 08 NTS numbers for this exact same reason hence why they use 08 NTS numbers instead of 09x numbers as all consumers are fully aware that 09x numbers are premium rate whereas consumers think that 08 NTS numbers are local/national rate.

Why do so many (if not all) teleco's offering NTS numbers misleadingly state that calls to 084x are local rate and calls to 087x are national rate?  Again, simply because it's not good business (for the teleco's) to be forthcoming and state the truth that calls to NTS numbers are NOT local/national rate and can cost upto (in some circumstances) 40p/min.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
0870advice.com
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 20
Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #7 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 12:30pm
 
Hi BBB_UK,

We're not trying to hide the fact we're a CP in any way at all.  We initially put www.0870advice.com up for our existing business clients to understand the history of this decision, the impact it may have on their business and what viable options they may have going forward.

As I said above we certainly want to avoid a mass migration to 0871 - a) because this would be bad news for consumers, b) the range is saturated and simply not enough numbers available, c) the ongoing 0871 pre-consultation which may result in restrictions on the use of these numbers with ICSTIS regulation.

We are trying to work with our clients to develop an appropriate mix of 08xx numbers which more closely matches the nature of the calls they receive, whilst still retaining thier now essential network level services.  This may include 0370, 0800, 0844, 0845, 0870 and 0871 etc depending on their business needs / requirements.

I agree with you entirely that there was a need for more price transparency in relation to the cost of 0870 and 0845 etc - do you really think this has been achieved by the Ofcom proposals ?

I also fully understand what you're saying in your example.  Again, do you think the Ofcom proposals address this problem in any way ?

Cheers,
0870Advice
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
0870advice.com
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 20
Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #8 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 12:41pm
 
Hi BBB_UK (again !),

Once again tend to agree with you on your points relating to businesses having to publicise the cost of the call.  This all relates to more price transparency and I'm afraid this should not be down to CPs - it should dictated by Ofcom...

Our view is that the NTS review has just added further confusion on NTS pricing and will confuse the consumer even more.

At least via www.0870advice.com we're attempting to keep businesses informed - surely this is a step forward ?

Cheers,
0870Advice
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
andy9
Supreme Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 505
Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #9 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 1:38pm
 
Companies have used the income from these calls to subsidise their outgoing call costs for years. Providers such as Energis set up some of the earliest 0870 numbers, and it was clearly stated near the beginning that calls could be connected for 3 or 4 pence a minute, and the rest of the 8 pence revenue was available to be shared.

If  there is such an administrative overhead in launching new phone numbers, why do large companies keep introducing yet more of them? And how often do websites need to be updated for other reasons?

Why do we need to spare a thought for these large companies that charge labour rates of £100 to £200 an hour? Can't they afford the minuscule proportion of this they spend on phone bills?


You mention 600,000. Is that numbers or companies? I strongly suspect the former as smaller businesses have not been so seduced into this practice.

A randomly chosen page in the local phone book has 22 such numbers out of over 200, for only 8 bodies none of them resident in the area.

Actually, perhaps that one's not so random as it includes British Airways and British Gas, so I looked at a page in the Fs. There are 3x 0800, 4x 0845, 4x0870. These companies and other bodies are from Bristol, Cardiff, Coventry, Edinburgh, Glenrothes, Leeds and other such dispersed places, so we might assume they are in almost every directory in the country.

Only 3 NGNs (1 each 0800, 0845, 0870) are from this phone book area out of two pages containing over 400 results, so I reckon up to 99% of businesses do not use such numbers. If your 600,000 businesses claim is correct and relates to 1 or 2% of the total, that could mean there are more businesses in the country than adult people.


I have (had) 6 NGNs myself - 4 fax to email numbers (one 0870 defunct and an 0845 that does not work), and two 0560 numbers. I hope nobody is counting me as 6 businesses that will have to spend money changing these, as only three bodies know one fax number, and 2 people recognised the 0560 caller ID when I called them 3 times in a day from a foreign mobile
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2006 at 1:56pm by andy9 »  
 
IP Logged
 
bbb_uk
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2,041
Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #10 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 2:03pm
 
0870advice.com wrote on Nov 9th, 2006 at 12:30pm:
We're not trying to hide the fact we're a CP in any way at all.  We initially put www.0870advice.com up for our existing business clients to understand the history of this decision, the impact it may have on their business and what viable options they may have going forward.
Which is commendable except the website still maintains the deception that 084x is local and 087x is national rate and implying that its not worth companies keeping with 0870 as they've to pay an incoming per minute charge - and similar things for 0845 where you state that an incoming per minute charge is payable.  All this is untrue as many companies don't charge for incoming calls on 0845 numbers (as I mentioned earlier).

Quote:
I agree with you entirely that there was a need for more price transparency in relation to the cost of 0870 and 0845 etc - do you really think this has been achieved by the Ofcom proposals ?
They've tried a little but too late though if you ask me as consumer confusion over 08 NTS numbers being local/national rate is too much especially when teleco's still misleadingly state these calls are local/national rate.  They could do a lot more but are unwilling so as not to hurt companies, teleco's using these numbers.

0870advice.com wrote on Nov 9th, 2006 at 12:41pm:
Once again tend to agree with you on your points relating to businesses having to publicise the cost of the call.  This all relates to more price transparency and I'm afraid this should not be down to CPs - it should dictated by Ofcom
If you're referring to my points on the fact that CPs misleadingly state that calls to 08 NTS numbers are charged at local/national rate then I disagree because it is the teleco that is misleading customers so Ofcom shouldn't have to force teleco's to stop this misleading claim as its the teleco that are being dishonest.  On the other hand, it is very clear that teleco's want to continue this lie about local/national rate so now Ofcom should force teleco's such as yours to stop these misleading claims.

The point is this misleading lie is too widespread to expect teleco's to do this of their own accord especially as they (teleco's) don't want to tell the truth as their profit margins would be affected by it so instead continue the lie and the scam so they (teleco's) can continue to get more customers (ie businesses) signing up to these so-called local/national rate numbers on false pretences.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2006 at 2:07pm by bbb_uk »  
 
IP Logged
 
bbb_uk
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2,041
Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #11 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 2:13pm
 
Teleco's want to keep these lies so bad that most have not complied with Ofcom's regulation that OCPs (those that have control of prices of these calls) should clearly state on the same page and in similar format as existing geographical numbers, how much calls to NTS numbers actually are and that they're excluded.

This regulation came into force about 3 months ago now but yet hardly any OCP has actually complied with it - not even BT - simply because OCPs don't want us consumers knowing just how much these calls actually cost and that in most cases they're not included in any inclusive tariffs we may have.

This was discussed more in this thread which I think clearly shows how far OCPs will go to continue to mislead their customers and rob them blind.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
0870advice.com
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 20
Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #12 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 3:23pm
 
Dear BBB_UK,

We need to clear something up here...

CPs sell 0845 and 0870 numbers to businesses who are 'fully aware' of what the cost will be to their customers.

We have no control of whether they then publicise the actual cost of the call to their customers.

It is the consumers who need to be made fully aware of the cost of 0845 and 0870 numbers and the consumers need to be made aware of the now inaccurate association with local and national rates.

As I said right at the start... We were in total agreement that there was (and still is) a need for more price transparency.

These proposals from Ofcom just make things even more confusing for the consumer...

It should be down to Ofcom (or associated Government bodies) to either dictate that businesses publicise the cost of the call to the consumer (as with Premium rate) or run some sort of publicity campaign to try and make more consumers aware.

I don't agree that the responsibility lies with the CPs - all of our customers are fully aware of the cost to the caller of any NTS number we provide.

Additionally, as I stated in first post... Whatever NTS number we provide we make a similar margin - 0800, 0844, 0845, 0870, 0871 etc - so there is no incentive for us to 'keep these lies so bad' !

Cheers,
0870Advice

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
acezing
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 70
Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #13 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 3:24pm
 
This is nothing but SPAM by the back door. Why is it being allowed?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
bbb_uk
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2,041
Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #14 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 4:05pm
 
0870advice.com wrote on Nov 9th, 2006 at 3:23pm:
CPs sell 0845 and 0870 numbers to businesses who are 'fully aware' of what the cost will be to their customers.
Yes CPs do but they do so by misleadingly advertising that 084x is local rate and 087x is national rate so then businesses think well consumers are only being charged local or national rate for any call to them.

Ofcom, ASA and Trading Standards all agree that describing 08 NTS calls as either local rate or national rate is misleading but so far Ofcom fail to do anything.  The ASA and Trading Standards do enforce hence why in non-broadcast adverts you now see the actual cost of calls to 08 NTS numbers and no longer can you mention they are local or national rate.

For example, your GoldNumbers website clearly is misleading potential customers and can be reported to Trading Standards but I personally think that Ofcom has to force CPs to stop these misleading lies about local or national rate simply because there are so many OCPs and CPs that still continue this lie.

Quote:
We have no control of whether they then publicise the actual cost of the call to their customers.
I realise CPs have no control over the cost hence why 08 NTS numbers can cost upto 40p/min from some mobile networks.  I was referring to OCP (those that actually have control over how they charge to certain number ranges like BT, NTL, TalkTalk, etc) they are currently required to provide clear/transparent info for us consumers but in most cases choose not to.  Ofcom are aware of this and are looking into it but as its seems to be standard practice for Ofcom to take 6 months plus to investigate these things - us consumers suffer in the interim.  This is not your fault as a CP and I admit that - it's Original Communication Providers that are obliged to follow this new regulation but so far fail.

Quote:
It is the consumers who need to be made fully aware of the cost of 0845 and 0870 numbers and the consumers need to be made aware of the now inaccurate association with local and national rates.
How can any reasonable person expect a consumers to be fully aware of the inaccuracies associated with 08 and their continued misleading descriptions of local rate and national rate when ALL OCP's and CP purposely still continue to go around misleading people with these inaccuracies.

Basically, even if a consumer did have some doubts about the cost of these calls then they would naturally visit their OCP website or any other OCP or CP for which it would basically state that NTS calls are local rate and national rate so therefore it is perfectly reasonable for a consumer to think that's its true simply due to how many teleco's actually still continue this lie.

Quote:
As I said right at the start... We were in total agreement that there was (and still is) a need for more price transparency.
Yes we are in agreement that there needs to be more price transparency but what I'm saying is that it doesn't help consumers become more aware of the 'actual' costs of these numbers if they are continually described as being either local rate or national rate.  A real local or national rate (ie geographical call) costs a maximum of 3p/min from a BT landline regardless of if you call someone around the corner or calling from London to Scotland - it all costs 3p/min.

It does become misleading when CPs state that calls to 084x/087x are either local rate or national rate simply because they would end up paying more for the call than a proper local rate or national rate.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 7
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Forum Admin, Dave, bbb_uk, CJT-80, DaveM)

Website and Content © 1999-2020 SAYNOTO0870.COM. All Rights Reserved.
Written permission is required to duplicate any of the content within this site.

WARNING: This is an open forum, posts are NOT endorsed by SAYNOTO0870.COM,
please exercise due caution when acting on any info from here.


SAYNOTO0870.COM » Powered by YaBB 2.5.2!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2021. All Rights Reserved.


Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge