I have written back to Mike Forster as follows : ---

To Mike Forster,

I must thank you for your response to my email, I really appeciate it.

I had not intended to write again but you say a few things which I think require further comment or clarification.   Some of my points may also be useful for your meeting on Thursday.

You say "Since many organisations (including the police and library) increasingly use 0844 or even 0845 numbers you can understand why some GPs have followed suit".   I have to say two wrongs do not make a right.   Just because the Police are ripping off the public it is no justification for the doctors to follow suit.   I can tell you that the Police have come under extensive criticism, from public, MPs and Lords, over this and they have been compelled to make geographic phone numbers available as alternatives to their rip-off numbers.   Unfortunately these are not well publicised, but thet are available from most forces.   TV police initially held out but were compelled to reveal their numbers under the Freedom of Information Act.   I hope all doctors do not have to endure FOIA requests in the future.   If they really need to use 0844, providing a geographic alternative for patients who ask, at least, would go some way to remove the criticism that doctors are just money grubbing.

You mentioned that 09 and 0870 were forbidden two years ago.   This was because they are higher cost revenue sharing numbers.   0844/5 are also a higher cost revenue sharing numbers.   If 0870 is wrong in principle then so is 0844.    I think you are incorrect about 0844/5 numbers being encouraged.   Both the DoH and OFCOM have advised that they are to be avoided.   Perhaps they should have given a stronger directive, but DoH wrote to all PCTs last year to say, in effect do not use those numbers.   PCTs and doctors going 0844/5 are contravening those instructions.

I have heard of the "independent survey" that you mention.   I believe this is constantly pushed forward by NEG.   It should be treated with a fair amount of scepticism.   Why not carry out your own survey of peoples opinions of doctors using 0844.   On this mornings broadcast, a small sample admitedly, I think only one person was unconcerned about 0844, a reasonably healthy young person probably, while a dozen or more were critical to a greater or lesser degree.   If you were to look at all the comments from the public after articles in the Times, Daily Mail and other papers you begin to see the strength and depth of feeling against.   By the way, Alistair from Market Harboro, this morning, is, I am told, PR Director for NEG: a fact he did not disclose and he gave an astonishingly incorrect misleading suggestion "that 0844 numbers can be included in your phone package".   He must know this to be untrue, as he works within the industry.

Regarding the elderly lady and her phone bill, I can say from personal experience that 0844 on my bill has been charged at" premium rate g6" -- this is apparently a phone industry term.   0870 for example is "premium rate g7".   It is the phone industry themselves who call these "premium" rate.   Lets not get hung up on semantics.   Ofcom define Premium rate as 09 numbers at 20p per min upwards.   0844/5 are priced at a "premium" to normal  geo numbers.   So the lady is right, by the dictionary definition, 0844 is charged at a premium to normal numbers.   Her evidence also gives the lie to phone queues being  reduced.   They are not, and now they are also expensive --- so her husband walks to the surgery to make appointments!!!   How bad is this?   I also know people who do the same.   People DO NOT LIKE 0844.

One thing which you said this morning --- doctors are "not allowed to recover more than the cost of the system from this revenue sharing scheme".    How exactly does that work?    And if they are only getting £400 per month, how much are NEG making out of this.   I have seen estimates that they are raking in up to £50000 per annum per surgery.   If this is anything like true then doctors are unwittingly assisting in a scandalous exploitation of patients, particularly pensioners and the chronically sick.

You said that a system costs about £10000 capital cost.   This of course could be funded as a normal cap ex. and depreciated through the Revenues rules, so actual cost to surgeries would be minimal and this would be massively more economical from the patients point of view.   You may be interested in a comment sent to me by someone who heard the broadcast this am -- "PBX costs - there are cheaper phone systems; perhaps this bloke should do some actual research, instead of buying off the first propagandists to walk through the door - maybe like £400 per PBX and between £60 and £200 per phone, and set-up costs, so a couple of thousand should be plenty for many places. Any enterprise of a similar size also has to fund its phone system; why are doctors entitled to act like this, as parasites on their patients?"

I would be very interested to see what questions you have raised wth the National GP Committee and to see their response.

Thank you once again for your message.

By the way I notice this has been started as a separate thread which seems unfortunate.

It ought to have been a continuation of the 0844 NEG thread in order to ensure maximum participation on the show.

NGM, I don't think David is putting himself forward as a one man campaign, rather the opposite.   Unfortunately BBC Radio decided to present him as such, thats reporters for you.   In fact David and I deliberately talk about "we", the campaign, to imply to the media that there are a multitude of us campaigning, as you know.

I had hoped that you would speak on the live prog and I don't know why they haven't grabbed you.   Perhaps you could try again, under a different persona?

I have spoken to the reporter/news reader to point out the fallacy in A. Campbells arguments.   And she fully agreed with me.   I have drawn their attention to the 27 MPs EDM and to the Petition, maybe they will be mentioned later in the prog.

Incidentally, this item was No1 on their 7am news!!! Ahead of the McCann story!!!   Can't get better than that.

Notice, not one , of 15 doctors practices , nor the local PCT are prepared to come on the prog and explain themselves.   Are they worried or what??     Perhaps they were listening to Radio Glos yesterday!

I was asked by a forum member to withdraw my previous comments complaining about David being represented on David Bristol as a one man campaign against the 0844 doctors numbers.

I don't think I can do that now as other comments from other members have followed but all I can say is that I now understand this to be the result of reporter error on the program not due to any attempt to mislead them by David.

I would therefore like to thank David for his efforts in getting the issue on air and apologise if I may wrongly have suggested that he may have tried to mislead BBC Radio Bristol when it is in fact the program's error.

Dave wrote on Sep 11^th, 2007 at 8:50pm:


t-mobile website quotes all their pay-as-you-go tariffs have a charge of up to £2.50/min for (non-freephone) 08* numbers.  Freephone numbers are up to 40p/min.  I can quite see an 0844 being £1/min based on that maximum!

See : http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/shop/mobile-phones/price-plans/pay-as-you-go/
and click on "quick guide to costs" near the bottom for the actual table.

Unfortumately, I can't find a list of specific rates for specific numbers.  They say to call customer services (at up to 25p/min!) on "150" if you want specifics.  On a t-mobile phone I presume!!  Not that I have one, or am I ever likely to, with those rates!

What is the maximum an 08* is charged from a BT landline??

loddon wrote on Sep 12^th, 2007 at 6:27pm:

No. But your speculation no doubt coincides with mine - the "principal supplier". 

BBC Radio Bristol today reported doctors are earning revenue from their patients phone calls by using 0844.   This was the No1 item at 7am, ahead of the McCann story and was discussed, together with other topics throughout the morning.   You can "Listen Again" on the BBC Radio Bristol website : ---

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/local_radio/           Click "Listen Again" and "Breakfast".

There were many comments and discussions with the public and interviews with A. Campbbell, from a system supplier, and Liam Fox MP.   They reported that 15 practices in the area have gone to 0844 but not one doctor or practice manager was prepared to join the prog to discuss the matter.   The local PCT also declined to contribute.

Mr Campbell was asked why doctors are choosing this system and his main reason given was that callers could be put in a queue rather than get the engaged tone.

A lady said that her phone bills are now far more than they were and she objects to the extra cost.   She regards this move by doctors as outrageous.

Liam Fox was extremely concerned about doctors using 0844.   He said it was wrong in principle , raised important issues and was unacceptable.   He said it is a "stealth tax" and a charge on patients that should not be made.   Doctors are funded out of taxation and should not be supplemented by other revenue earning schemes.   It is becoming increasingly difficult for patients to get access to their doctor and referred to the recent massive pay rise gained by doctors.   He will be writing to the local PCT asking what money is being made by doctors out of this.   He said honesty and clarity are needed.