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URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Members (Read 68,286 times)
SilentCallsVictim
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #60 - Dec 20th, 2008 at 12:08pm
 
From a very quick reading, this looks to me like complete victory on the point of principle. The BBC has been found to be under a legal duty (imposed in the FOI Act) to release all known geographic equivalents for its non-geographic numbers.

The whole point about FOI in this type of situation is not that the body has to wait for a decision by the Information Tribunal, the ICO, or even a formal request. These are just the mechanisms that have to be used when information that should be published in the normal course of events is being withheld.

I would suggest that an approach to the BBC, at a senior level, to ask how it proposes to now act in the light of this decision would be a very simple task for any member, or indeed any journalist. The consultation by the DH has made the issue topical, as has an issue with phone calls to the BBC last weekend. I suspect that someone in the media would wish to run with it.

One hopes that this would force the BBC to consudct an immediate review of its policy with regard to all non-geographic numbers, leading to adoption of 03 or geo numbers throughout the coporation. This could be alongside already well-known numbers with proper price information.
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derrick
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #61 - Dec 20th, 2008 at 12:26pm
 
NGMsGhost wrote on Dec 20th, 2008 at 11:50am:
derrick wrote on Dec 20th, 2008 at 11:34am:
Also I do not see them complying and will more than likely appeal to the Appeals Tribunal, unless none of the numbers they have been told to give up are now out of use and useless to anyone.


Derrick,

As I think I have tried to mention before the body in question is actually called The Information Tribunal and not the Appeals Tribunal.

See www.informationtribunal.gov.uk




You know what I mean, stop playing semantics, anyone who goes to that tribunal is "Appealing a Decision" so whilst you maybe strictly correct, everyone, including you, knows what is meant by Appeals Tribunal.
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jrawle
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #62 - Dec 20th, 2008 at 2:30pm
 
Quote:
              Freedom of Information Act 2000 (Section 50)
                               Decision Notice
                            11 December 2008

Public Authority: British Broadcasting Company
Address:          Media Centre
                  201 Wood Lane
                  London
                  W12 7TQ


How are we supposed to trust the Information Commissioner to do things properly when they can't even get the name of the BBC right? To find the British Broadcasting Company, you have to go back to 1926!!!
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NGMsGhost
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #63 - Dec 20th, 2008 at 2:48pm
 
derrick wrote on Dec 20th, 2008 at 12:26pm:
You know what I mean, stop playing semantics, anyone who goes to that tribunal is "Appealing a Decision" so whilst you maybe strictly correct, everyone, including you, knows what is meant by Appeals Tribunal.


Derrick it seems they have just altered how the whole damned Tribunals system works on 3rd November 2008 so my comments were clearly historic.

See www.tribunals.gov.uk/Tribunals/Documents/Releases/0708.pdf

Bizarrely the Lands Tribunal, who I have a case ongoing with, have told me nothing about these changes or how they will affect my case.

They continue to use a mix of 0845 and geographic phone numbers though.

See www.tribunals.gov.uk/Tribunals/Common/contact.htm

Actually they only have one central Customer Service Centre on an 0845 number though so the position for contacting them has clearly now got worse. Shocked Angry Cry
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« Last Edit: Dec 20th, 2008 at 2:50pm by NGMsGhost »  

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derrick
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #64 - Dec 20th, 2008 at 3:05pm
 
jrawle wrote on Dec 20th, 2008 at 2:30pm:
Quote:
              Freedom of Information Act 2000 (Section 50)
                               Decision Notice
                            11 December 2008

Public Authority: British Broadcasting Company
Address:          Media Centre
                  201 Wood Lane
                  London
                  W12 7TQ


How are we supposed to trust the Information Commissioner to do things properly when they can't even get the name of the BBC right? To find the British Broadcasting Company, you have to go back to 1926!!!



Weird that, as all correspondence to me, including a covering letter with the hard copy of the Decision Notice, calls it "British Broadcasting Corporation", although the actual hard copy DN does state as the website "British Broadcasting Company"
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NGMsGhost
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #65 - Dec 20th, 2008 at 3:21pm
 
I wonder if this mistake in the BBC's correct name is covered under the "slip rule" or if it invalidates the whole of the Commissioner's decision? Undecided
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« Last Edit: Dec 20th, 2008 at 3:22pm by NGMsGhost »  

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derrick
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #66 - Jan 29th, 2009 at 1:32pm
 
The Decision Notice was dated 11th December 2008, the 35 days expired on 15th January 2009,on the 16th January I e-mailed the ICO informing that I had not been furnished with he info re the DN. I was told they would contact the BBC and get back to me.

On the 22nd January  Richard Lawanson, (IC caseworker), e-mailed me with; -
I write to inform you that I have nowspoken to the BBC regarding the disclosure as per the Commissioner Decision Notice. I was told that the numbers ordered to be disclosed should be with you during the start of next week. If they are not, do not hesitate to contact me.


Yesterday, (Wednesday), as the BBC had not complied, I e-mailed R. Lawanson again and requested  the following; -  
I request that you invoke bullet point 49 of the Decision Notice as, in my opinion, they are clearly in contempt of court!

49.
Failure to comply with the steps described above may result in the Commissioner making written certification of this fact to the High Court pursuant to section 54 of the Act, and may be dealt with as a contempt of court.  



I received the following; -
I have forwarded this series of correspondence on to the legal department here at the ICO for their general advice. When I have that advice, I will inform you of the same and on how the matter will be progressed.

If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Richard



The numbers are probably academic now,(re the 03 number use), but it does go to show that the BBC think they are above everyone including the IC!

Lets see if the IC dares to take legal action!
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NGMsGhost
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #67 - Jan 29th, 2009 at 1:46pm
 
derrick wrote on Jan 29th, 2009 at 1:32pm:
The numbers are probably academic now,(re the 03 number use), but it does go to show that the BBC think they are above everyone including the IC!

Lets see if the IC dares to take legal action!


Well done Derrick.  Keep up the good work.  It will be interesting to see what you get in the end.  You might get some numbers for which the BBC still uses 0844, 0845 or 0871 numbers with a bit of luck as some of those are still in place.

I was listening to The Westminster Hour on BBC Radio 4 on the evening Sunday 18th January and one of the reports there was having a go at MP's expenses and the proposal to exempt them from disclosure and interviewing various MPs on the matter and the reporter then said that if anyone wanted to see his expenses he was sure it was a simple matter to submit an FOI to the BBC and get them. Roll Eyes

Well as we know MPs are not now to be exempted from the FOI over disclosure of expenses and I really meant to submit an FOI to the BBC at the time to ask for this reporter's expenses but have not yet got round to doing so.  Unfortunately I don't have his name and its now over 7 days since broadcast so its no longer available on the BBC Iplayer.  I don't know if anyone else perhaps heard the program and can tell me who this reporter was so I can submit that FOI.  I bet if I do they find a reason to refuse it. Shocked Angry
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derrick
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #68 - Jan 30th, 2009 at 1:27pm
 




Well it has arrived, but we do not know what they do or did relate to,(they will not give any more info as they have complied with the DN, so NGNsGhost and SCV don't ask Grin), unless anyone still has the relevant numbers to compare with!



Mr * *****
By email to: ***************


30 January 2009


Dear Mr ******,


ICO Decision Notice FS50133140 (Original BBC Ref: RFI2006000462)

I refer to the Information Commissioner’s Decision Notice of 11 December 2008, regarding your request to the BBC under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (“the Act”) of 31 July 2006, asking a series of questions about the BBC’s use of 0870 numbers.

The ICO accepted that the BBC does not hold the information you sought regarding non-geographic numbers accompanied by a call plan, but required that the BBC disclose to you the equivalent geographic number of our non-geographic numbers not accompanied a call plan.  
Please see below the 31 numbers referred to in the Decision Notice, as at the date of your request, being 31 July 2006.  


      NGN                                                                CallPlan  
    (Prefix with '0')                       TAD                  Y or N?

1  8700100088                    02074650264                 N
2  8700100180                    02085760639                 N
3  8700100500                    02076495512                 N
4  8700100611                    01413075974                 N
5  8700100612                    02074650264                 N
6  8700100613                    02074650264                 N
7  8700100700                    02074650264                 N
8  8700100720                    01386421129                 N
9  8700100882                    01214329956                 N
10  8700100883                  02087438000                 N
11  8700100884                  02087494272                 N
12  8700101010                  01204770270                 N
13  8700102867                  01386421129                 N  
14  8700102897                  01214328958                 N
15  8700106676                  02082258222                 N
16  8700107070                  02076490636                 N
17  8700108891                  01216060323                 N
18  8703332772                  01787223300                 N
19  8703333046                  02087524777                 N
20  8703334988                  02087527973                 N
21  8703336000                  02074650071                 N
22  8709002155                  02072089039                 N
23  8709002626                  02076495634                 N
24  8709003550                  02076495633                 N
25  8709008833                  01413075973                 N
26  8709009595                  02089141820                 N
27  8709022002                  02074650264                 N
28  8709022003                  01619532003                 N
29  8709030304                  02890535990                 N
30  8709090225                  02087494272                 N
31  8709090555                  02920323782                 N

We apologise for the delay in releasing this information to you.  When collating the information a question was raised as to whether any further numbers were in existence at that time and we sought confirmation of this from a number of our third party suppliers.  We apologise that this has taken longer than we would have wished.  It has been determined that, in addition to the 31 numbers listed above, that the TVL ‘Minicom’ number of 0870 575 8604 was also in use.  Its geographical equivalent was: 0117 302 1400.

I hope you find this information useful.

Kind regards,


Stephanie Simmonds
Senior Advisor
BBC Information Policy and Compliance
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #69 - Jan 30th, 2009 at 1:42pm
 
Well done. There is nothing more to ask, except ...

Does this establish a precedent for an equivalent list for all the current 0845 numbers to be provided?
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derrick
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #70 - Jan 30th, 2009 at 1:46pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 30th, 2009 at 1:42pm:
Well done. There is nothing more to ask, except ...

Does this establish a precedent for an equivalent list for all the current 0845 numbers to be provided?



Are you volunteering?  Grin

This took 2½ years!
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« Last Edit: Jan 30th, 2009 at 1:47pm by derrick »  
 
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NGMsGhost
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #71 - Jan 30th, 2009 at 2:12pm
 
derrick wrote on Jan 30th, 2009 at 1:46pm:
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 30th, 2009 at 1:42pm:
Well done. There is nothing more to ask, except ...

Does this establish a precedent for an equivalent list for all the current 0845 numbers to be provided?



Are you volunteering?  Grin

This took 2½ years!


Yes but the precedent has now been set that they will lose on this so they ought to come up with the alternatives for their 0844 and 0845 and any 0871 numbers within weeks of a request being submitted to them.
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derrick
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #72 - Jan 30th, 2009 at 2:23pm
 
NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 30th, 2009 at 2:12pm:
derrick wrote on Jan 30th, 2009 at 1:46pm:
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 30th, 2009 at 1:42pm:
Well done. There is nothing more to ask, except ...

Does this establish a precedent for an equivalent list for all the current 0845 numbers to be provided?



Are you volunteering?  Grin

This took 2½ years!


Yes but the precedent has now been set that they will lose on this so they ought to come up with the alternatives for their 0844 and 0845 and any 0871 numbers within weeks of a request being submitted to them.


Do you actually think that they would?

With this FOI they have lied and refused relevant information to be disclosed both to the IC, and myself, and continued to flout the IC’s authority, by not disclosing until 3 weeks after the time limit re the DN had expired.

They would probably have some excuse that because the radio stations, (as that is where the majority of 0845 numbers are), are somewhat "independant" we would need to request from each and every radio station fro the geo numbers, or that the numbers are "accompanied by a call plan", and if so will not need to disclose them.

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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #73 - Jan 30th, 2009 at 3:31pm
 
I have been told by the BBC Information Policy department that each FOI request has to be assessed on its merits.

The bitter experience with the previous case has however given them a clearer understanding of their duties under the FOI Act in this respect. It has also given them an understanding of the network of internal responsibilities and external contractors that had to be unravelled to get to the information that was sought.

I believe this to suggest that a further request would be handled more speedily than the previous one.

I would be happy to deal with this, however I am busy with other things, including involvement with a piece planned for BBC Radio 5Live this afternoon at 5:45 dealing with Ofcom's approach to Silent Calls.

We are being very succesful at present, let's share this success around.
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NGMsGhost
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Re: URGENT -BBC 03 Decision 21/4- Email Board Memb
Reply #74 - Jan 30th, 2009 at 3:33pm
 
derrick wrote on Jan 30th, 2009 at 2:23pm:
They would probably have some excuse that because the radio stations, (as that is where the majority of 0845 numbers are), are somewhat "independant" we would need to request from each and every radio station fro the geo numbers, or that the numbers are "accompanied by a call plan", and if so will not need to disclose them.

Their FOI website (www.bbc.co.uk/foi/)suggests a centralised approach for all FOI requests to the BBC but why not make one and find out?  If the FOI comes in under your name they are far more likely to roll over as they now know you are tenacious and will not give up.

If I make one they might not think I am aware of my rights to appeal to the ICO etc, etc.
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« Last Edit: Jan 30th, 2009 at 5:24pm by Dave »  

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