bazzerfewi wrote on Feb 4^th, 2011 at 10:28pm:


Please don't take this the wrong way, but I would have thought the "purpose" of this site was to find ways to avoid calling 08 numbers (unless they are free)... campaigning for the inclusion of 0845 numbers in a paln would therefore go against this ethos?  Or am I wrong?

This thread is getting drawn into the detail of lots of particular arrangements.

bazzerfewi wrote on Feb 4^th, 2011 at 10:28pm:

Can we please sort out what these current and planned Virgin Media offers are.

What exactly is this £2 a month deal? Is it actually formally available from Virgin Media?

Are the VM "plans" to include 0845 numbers in call packages the unauthorised musings of a helpline representative, a confused reference to "Talk x00", or a serious plan to change the existing packages or offer more alternatives?

When 0845 numbers are included in packages all subscribers are paying towards the service charge that is paid over when Business Rate 0845 numbers are called. This cost is obviously reflected in the price for the package, or cross subsidised in some other way. I wholly disapprove of this approach and will strongly oppose any campaign for it to be extended.

Whilst there is much to criticise about the way in which Ofcom is dealing with this issue, I wholeheartedly support the "unbundling" proposal in the current consultation. Perhaps those who disagree, and argue for inclusion would care to join the debate in the relevant thread.

Yes VM does offer 0845 numbers in their Calls Unlimited Package if you pay £2 per month extra "needless to say I am not prepared to pay and additional £2 because I personally do not contact any company displaying an 0845 or 0870 number

I am still totally apposed to these numbers but I do carry out research and I am able to source numbers from other sites but not all callers are this resourceful

I am just interested in assisting callers that are not aware of this site and are not quite as resourceful

Follow on from last evenings conversation

I have just been in contact with Virgin Media and they have two plans for 0845 numbers

300 minutes per month will cost £2
500 minutes per month will cost £5

I do appreciate that say no to 0870 is to campaign and control the use of 0845 numbers and 0870 numbers and I believe the site is going in the right direction in this regard but I do admit I do not fully understand the industry as some members do.

But just as 0870 tarriffs have changed surely the next step is to campaign to change 0845 numbers to.

I was told today that the next step for VM was to include 0845 numbers in call packages. "We will have to wait and see"


This is a great site and it appears that the industry is responding to the pressure let us hope that it continues

I appreciate your disbelief as I have contact VM on two occasions in the last 24 hours and I have been told two different versions.
They did not mention on any occasion that this was for staff only in fact they want to implement is there and then.

I do not need these numbers to be part of call packages for myself because I never ring 0845 or 0870 numbers but there are thousands of users out there that do not use or are maybe not aware of the Saynoto0870 site.

It is with them in that I mention this proposal

bazzerfewi wrote on Feb 4^th, 2011 at 11:10pm:

I'm just catching up with recent postings. Having read the comments on what it is that Virgin Media is offering, I don't think it is quite what it first appeared to be which is an inclusive package with 01, 02, 03 and 0845 numbers (I may be wrong). I understand that the 0845 inclusivity is an add-on.


Anyway, to explain the reasoning for my opposition of making 0845 inclusive (in its current form):

Firstly, a telephone call should be considered as being two parties, each served by a different telephone company. So the call passes the boundary (shown below as ) between two telephone companies:

Caller ----- <Caller's telco> <Receiver's telco> ----- Receiver

So Caller places a call to the Receiver and in order for the call to be connected, the Caller's telco must pass the call to the Receiver's telco which connects it to its customer (the Receiver). It stands to reason that the call cannot be connected other than with the service of the Receiver's telco.

For the call to pass , the Receiver's telco levies a fee on the Caller's telco. It's a bit like a toll for the call to continue on its journey.


The "normal" toll is that incurred for a geographic or 03 call, but the toll for a 0845 number carries a premium.

It stands to reason that as a premium product, 0845 will have a higher retail price (i.e. higher call cost). So bringing it down to the same as a "normal" call (as is the case with a tariff that includes 01/02/03 and 0845 calls), would leave the call providing telco to recoup the premium from its customers in general.

That is, the likely effect is that prices for all its customers will rise. And of course the other effect which SilentCallsVictim touched on (reply #21) is that the more this happened, the more it would be seen as acceptable get a 0845 number because any individual caller wouldn't pay more and so in turn more calls would be made and prices would rise even more. This is why I say that including 0845 numbers in packages should be opposed.


On the other hand, if this is an add-on, say £2 per month for lots of 0845 calls, then that is not the same.

bazzerfewi wrote on Feb 7^th, 2011 at 3:51am:

As I explain in my latest posting in the "Virgin Media 0845 Addition Charge Package" thread it is canny callers, who regularly call 0845 or other 08 numbers, who may be well advised to take up one of the Talk 08 add-on Talk Plans, if they qualify. This is however under the current regime.

The fault is with the present structure. BT is not allowed to make money on 084 calls, whereas it is on 01/02/03. There is no transparency of the "Service Charge" levied by receivers, as distinct from the Access Charge levied by the caller's telco. The fact that both providers and callers benefit from "hassle free" packages, makes it impossible to criticise them for offering and accepting fixed monthly charges.

The proposed unbundled structure presents a proper way forward. Receivers will be exposed as levying a Service Charge on everything from 0845 to 09 calls. Telcos will present a simple NGCS Access Charge. I see it as highly likely that some telcos will offer bundled Access Charges, possibly even as part of their standard "Unlimited" packages. So long as nobody forgets about the Service Charges that will be added, I see no problem in that.