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OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION (Read 367,900 times)
bbb_uk
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #90 - Oct 15th, 2005 at 7:33pm
 
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...this outrageous scamming has been able to carry on in ever larger amounts for the last 8 years...
Where does 8 years come from because until BT done away with local / national price differences then 0845 was local and was cheaper regardless of where you rung from (except of course those on inclusive calling plans).
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #91 - Oct 15th, 2005 at 7:41pm
 
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Where does 8 years come from because until BT done away with local / national price differences then 0845 was local and was cheaper regardless of where you rung from (except of course those on inclusive calling plans).

I think it's because the framework for the numbers doesn't allow for providers to undercut these BT rates, and therefore stifles competition. AFAIK, these local/national linkages only applied to BT non-discounted tariffs. Other providers can charge as they please, or in the words of Ofcom, it's upto their "commercial discretion".

The reality is that they stiffle competition and providers cannot charge geographical rates because of the differences (from a financial point of view) in the ways geographical and NTS calls are terminated.

The latest consultation document seems to make some headway in this area because it talks about making providers other than BT charge a particular price on 0870, at least.
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #92 - Oct 15th, 2005 at 7:44pm
 
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I think it's because the framework for the numbers doesn't allow for providers to undercut these BT rates, and therefore stifles competition. AFAIK, these local/national linkages only applied to BT non-discounted tariffs. Other providers can charge as they please, or in the words of Ofcom, it's upto their "commercial discretion".
I didn't think of that point of view.

Has anyone managed to finish the document yet?
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #93 - Oct 15th, 2005 at 8:29pm
 
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Where does 8 years come from because until BT done away with local / national price differences then 0845 was local and was cheaper regardless of where you rung from (except of course those on inclusive calling plans).


Because from 1997 on I could call geographic numbers on my BT line using an indirect prefix code (1615) with other companies like AXS Telecom (now merged into Tiscali) at 2p per minute in the weekday peak but 0845 then cost me 4p per minute and 0870 7.91p per minute.  So for those of us in the country pinned to a BT line but prepared to use the cheapest call carrier the fact is that calls to 084 and 087 non geographic numbers have been costing us lots of extra money since 1997 when these calls were already far more expensive than the cheapest way of making geographic calls.

The fact that some lazy BT customers didn't look for other ways to make calls until the more aggressive marketing of TalkTalk and Tele2 in the last couple of years is neither here nor there.  The 1st July 2004 BT price change merely meant that even lazy and stupid customers that made all their calls with BT were forcibly transferred to BT Compulsion 1 (aka BT Option 1) and sudenly found 0870 and 0845 calls were now also costing them more money.  Although BT did their best to hide this by still calling 0845 and 0870 Lo-Call and National Rate on phone bills which the ever incompetent Ofcom amazingly allowed.

But for the most telecoms price aware members of this forum (which I consider myself amongst along with Dorf and Tanllan who unlike me both have professional backgrounds in the telecoms industry) 084/7NGNs have been costing us much more money than calling geographic numbers on our BT lines since at least 1997.
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #94 - Oct 15th, 2005 at 8:32pm
 
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Has anyone managed to finish the document yet?


So far I haven't managed to start it and have only read the Ofcom press release which didn't encourage me to even want to start the consultation documents.

The thing is I know they are going to me very, very angry and I don't know if my blood pressure can stand it.  Of course as the response date to the consultation looms I will have to brace myself for the task.  But as one who read the two consultation documents for the last consultation in full I know the sort of drivel they are bound to contain.
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #95 - Oct 18th, 2005 at 12:57pm
 
The first responses to the consultation document have already been published:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/?a=87101
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As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.
 
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #96 - Oct 18th, 2005 at 5:42pm
 
Well, Norfolk Trading Standards have submitted their response to Ofcom's NTS Consultation: A Way Forward here.

I quote this from it:-
Quote:
Ofcom supports compulsory price indications for NTS services. We disagree. Consumer protection law does not require any price indication to be given in relation to the provision of a telecommunications service. Criminal and civil sanctions can be imposed against advertisers who give a misleading price indication. By choosing not to give any price indication at all, advertisers can easily and legally avoid any risk that they are breaking the law and that those sanctions will be applied against them. It would be wrong to deny advertisers this option.

It is not desirable to require advertisers to give price indications for a product supplied by a third party (i.e. the OCP), where neither the advertiser nor any regulator has control over the price charged.

Ofcom suggests at A8.7 that it is better to give a 'fairly accurate' price indication than to leave consumers 'completely in the dark' about call prices. This is equivalent to saying that it is better to give a somewhat misleading price indication than not to give one at all. We disagree strongly.

We would not object to an indication which merely puts callers on notice that the call is not charged at a standard rate (e.g. 'Check rates with your service provider'), and gives no indication of price.

We strongly support Ofcom's proposals to require OCP's to publish their NTS call charges more prominently and accessibly, and we believe that these proposals will significantly reduce the already questionable benefit of
advertisers giving price indications. In our own work on this issue, we have found it difficult to ascertain call charges from OCP's, and particularly from mobile OCP's.

We submit that any future advertising guidance must recognise silence on price as a legal and acceptable option for advertisers.
They feel very, very strongly about not advertising the price of a call.  I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that Norfolk Council use 0844 that cost 5ppm?

I agree it's impossible to give a price indication from all teleco's but I believe Ofcom are correct in saying it's better to give a price indication from BT landline than none at all.  Simply because most landline teleco's charge approximately the same price as BT (slightly less in most cases).  The only exception is, of course, those low-cost, no-frills providers like Call18866/1899, etc.

Norfolk Council are of the opinion that simply stating "rates may vary" is sufficient.  I don't believe that makes us consumers aware of the call charges especially if its an 0845 / 0870, etc because most consumers will not bother checking simply because they will think it's just the same price as a local/national call.

I believe that anyone using an NGN's should state the cost of the call per minute from a BT landline.  For a 0845 it could read, "Calls cost upto 4ppm from a BT landline, prices vary from other networks."  Exactly what ASA/CAP & Ofcom have decided on so far.

Regardless to what Norfolk Council think that isn't in most cases misleading because it reads "upto".  Only time it's really wrong is for mobile networks and payphones and I believe ofcom should force price announcements on the networks for any call that isn't charged at normal geographical rates.  Don't the mobile networks already give a price announcement for freephone calls so could they not modify this to give a price indication on 084x/087x as well?

For those that didn't know Norfolk Council have issued a factsheet for businesses in their area that state they can't advertise their 0845/0870 as local/national but can remain silent on the cost of the call.  I challanged this and mentioned ASA/CAP guidelines and they stood by what they have mentioned in their factsheet.  You can view their factsheet (in pdf format) here and read their reply to my email here.
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« Last Edit: Oct 18th, 2005 at 5:49pm by bbb_uk »  
 
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gdh82
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #97 - Oct 18th, 2005 at 9:59pm
 
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The first responses to the consultation document have already been published:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/?a=87101


Thanks, idb, I found this post really useful.  Seeing other peoples examples, it shows how easy it is to respond to an Ofcom consultation.  I'm sure others would appreciate this too so will cut and paste your post to form a new thread so to make it more noticeable.

Of course, after making a response, whether or not anything changes as a result is another matter.  Still, you've got to be in it to win it, as they say!
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There's more of us that them, stick together and challenge 0870/0845 etc etc
 
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #98 - Oct 18th, 2005 at 11:05pm
 
I can see where Norfolk Trading Standards are coming from.    Their remit is not to protect  consumers, but to make  traders behave lawfully.

It is rather up to Ofcom to correct the rules, if Trading Standards are only concerned with compliance.

They have a point 'though, about advertisers being required to indicate what it's going to cost You  to call Them, when your contract for calling them is not with the advertiser but with your service provider -   hence their stance on getting the OCPs(?) ( - would that be  Outbound Call Providers ???)   to be much more upfront about their charges.
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #99 - Oct 19th, 2005 at 10:45am
 
Joe65, the problem is though that simply saying, "costs vary" does not make customers aware that they are paying over the odds compared to geographical calls.

How many consumers seeing an 0845 number and "costs vary" are going to check the cost of calls to 0845 from their provider when for years and years 0845 was known as (and indeed was) local rate?  You will find most people will think well it's just local rate and not think a thing of it.

I agree about making the telco's more upfront of the cost of these calls (they generally don't now) but this will really only happen on their website.  How many consumers actually check the website of the teleco for cost of calls because why should they as 0845 is local and 087x is national rate in their mind?

I know ofcom has mentioned the possibility of forcing telco's to do a price announcement but I believe they wont due to the cost involved to teleco's.  They should on mobile companies because there is a big difference from paying 4ppm to call an 084x to paying upto 40ppm.  The cost of this equipment can be taken from the profit they make between 40ppm and what it costs them to carry the call (obviously nowhere near 40ppm).  I realise that high costs in the NGN area mean calls to geographicals and handsets are generally cheaper.  I also understand that mobile networks probably spend a lot more money maintaining their networks than landline providers do simply because of the technology involved.

And remember that it could just be coincidence but Norfolk council charge 5ppm to call them and obviously don't tell anyone that they are paying well over the odds to call them when even an 0845 would be cheaper.  If you lived in Norfolk and were ringing an 0844 would you be happy in knowing that you are paying well over the odds to call your council instead of a geographical (or at worse an 0845)?
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« Last Edit: Oct 19th, 2005 at 10:50am by bbb_uk »  
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #100 - Oct 19th, 2005 at 10:53am
 
The main thing people should do in their responses is to slate Ofcom for launching another consultation instead of taking action and for the ridiculouse further delay proposed to any action on 0870, and even more 0845, when they finally announce what they are planning to do perhaps say next September. Shocked

Also say it is quite unbelievable that Ofcom are using the excuse of a few incompetent ISAs to allow 0845 to become higher priced than 0870 for a period while BT is still allowed to market 0845 as Lo-Call on every BT phone bill.

Also attack Ofcom for the absurd length and complexity of its consultation document which clearly does not make it accessible and is also unnecessary in relation to the relative simplicity of the subject matter involved.
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #101 - Oct 19th, 2005 at 11:30am
 
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Joe65, the problem is though that simply saying, "costs vary" does not make customers aware that they are paying over the odds compared to geographical calls.

How many consumers seeing an 0845 number and "costs vary" are going to check the cost of calls to 0845 from their provider when for years and years 0845 was known as (and indeed was) local rate?  You will find most people will think well it's just local rate and not think a thing of it.

I agree entirely bbb_uk, but if Tradings Standards people are conditioned to take this legalistic stance, then it's all the more important that OfCom get the law ammended accordingly.     Regulating the tarriffing of these numbers may be the only practical way.   That at least should bring more transparency to the contracts between consumers & their Telcos., as some Telco.s  have failed to.
   That might make it easier for the advertisers too, who need only then publish the regulation (IF it could be expressed in simple & clear cut terms).
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #102 - Oct 19th, 2005 at 6:57pm
 
Well I have now submitted my response to Ofcom. How many others will do the same?

Maybe the site should restrict access to the NGN database for those who havn't submitted a response to Ofcom.

That might make them realise they would be better off getting off their arse and doing _something_ to stop the abuse.

Cheers, Des.
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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #103 - Oct 19th, 2005 at 7:55pm
 
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The first responses to the consultation document have already been published:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/nts_forward/responses/?a=87101

How did you discover this really useful link idb ?

I made the mistake of searching for the responses myself on the OfCom site, found them no bother, spent ages, really getting into the  them, but it struck me how confused were most of the respondents continually referring to OfTel. At first I put it down to the industry being as confused as everyone else, until I slowly realised (on seeing even BT get it wrong) I was in totally the wrong place looking at responses to the previous NTS consultation. Embarrassed

Confusing or what ?    Thanks for the link idb, it's the only way I could find the right responses.

Any way to get it up on the Homepage, for the benefit of others confused by the administrative structure of the OfCom site ?
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« Last Edit: Oct 19th, 2005 at 8:42pm by joe65 »  

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Re: OFCOM - FUTURE OF 0870 NUMBERS - CONSULTATION
Reply #104 - Oct 19th, 2005 at 8:44pm
 
What seemed really amazing though was how pertinent all these responses (to the earlier consultation) seemed to be to todays one.
So Why are we still only here  ?
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