SAYNOTO0870.COM - USA - Non-Geographic codes

trevord

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Re: USA - Non-Geographic codes
Reply #60 - Mar 16^th, 2006 at 4:58pm

Dave wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 2:38pm:

Quote:

Under this scenario, phone customers would be less likely to switch to a new company if the company had to give them a telephone number with the new area code. Those customers would have to dial 10 digits much more often than an incumbent Bell company's customers. Also, all customers would be required to dial 10 digits to reach people who have new carriers when they would only have to dial seven digits for most of their other calls.

This tends to imply that if you change telecoms provider, you also have to change your telephone number - perhaps someone in the US can confirm whether that is true?
If so, that is at least one area where our regulator has achieved a result (of sorts) - you can change provider and keep the same 'phone number.

Dave wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 2:38pm:

As a result, one cannot dial numbers without a code. This is where different length codes are better.

Agreed - and this is one of the things that makes it difficult for a visitor to know how to dial a given number from a given location in N.America.

Dave wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 2:38pm:

Am I right in saying that in these circumstances, subscribers make a local call by dialing 10 digits (ie WITHOUT the leading 1)? In which case, there is infact spare numbering capacity which can never be used because the 1 isn't compulsory when dialing a code, unlike its 0 equivalent in the UK.

For those long distance calls, the code must be prefixed with 1. Have I got this right?

Idb indicated earlier that you may have different local and long-distance telecoms providers. I assume - but, again, perhaps someone in N.America could confirm - that it's the 1- prefix that sends the call via the long-distance provider.

Dave wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 2:38pm:

Isn't this a backward step that a so-called numbering plan ends up with a hotch-potch of unrelated codes overlapping in one area? Thus, they are not codes, but prefixes for numbers as they must be dialed as one. Surely it would make more sense if they would bite the bullet and add another digit to all local numbers.

That's one of the reasons I was maintaining yesterday that the NANPA system is not so clear & simple as others were claiming! Huh

Dave wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 2:38pm:

In a similar fashion, I have read that the 029 code (currently used for Cardiff) may be used for the whole of Wales. So is this good or bad to have 3 digit codes covering large areas such as Wales and Northern Ireland and still have others that have 5+6 numbers?

We agreed earlier that this is good for a large metropolitan area like London. Arguably, it's also good for a self-contained area like N.Ireland, so you don't bother with the code anywhere within that area. For Wales, I'd be less sure - in one sense it's self-contained, but if you're nearer the English border then ... . OTOH, if you equate it to a less populated US State having a single area code, then maybe it's sensible?
At least (for most users) it doesn't now affect the cost of a call - just how many digits you have to dial: we're agreed that 10 is too many for local calls (like US overlay areas) and that 8 is OK for London, so maybe 8 is OK for any 'sensible' 'well-defined' area.

Dave wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 1:29pm:

Also, isn't it a contradiction in terms to have mobiles using geographical numbers? I mean, a geographical number, by definition, relates to a particular location. So do you get a number local to where you live for your mobile in the US?

I believe so.

Dave wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 2:38pm:

But in the US the mobile networks are more like the patches on a patchwork quilt, are they not? So you may move from one part of the country and have to change providers, or is that more to do with roaming, something that you have to do when you move about the country anyway?

I'm sure that some big providers are national in the US, but some maybe local. I guess it's permanent 'roaming' if you stay with the old number at the new address, possibly with the result of having more 'long-distance' calls when calling within your new area. So even if you stay with the same provider, you may have to change numbers - one of the advantages of our non-geo mobile numbers - our numbering plan does have some sensible bits! Cheesy

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Dave

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Re: USA - Non-Geographic codes
Reply #61 - Mar 16^th, 2006 at 5:52pm

andy9 wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 4:16pm:

Dave wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 1:29pm:

There are some 'national dialling only' numbers (of the form 0114 0 and 0114 1)

No there aren't; they are masked off. Numbers that start with 0 or 1 are not allocated within exchanges - these initial numbers are for national dialling only, as you said. This is surely to avoid a call within the exchange being confused with a national number, eg neither 118xxx nor 189901 should be a local number on my exchange, nor the much loved Bedford number 012345 [67890].

But these numbers are still allocated to some 'service' which, i guess, would otherwise be taking up space on 'normal' numbers had the national dialing only ones not been opened up.

andy9 wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 4:16pm:

I didn't think that local numbers starting in 9 were allocated either, but have used an Oxford one a few times now. Presumably these became virtually available a few years ago when local dialling codes were abolished, eg 9, 983, 992 etc.

I thought that they would avoid numbers starting 9 too. But when some codes were changed in Nottingham, Bristol and Reading, local numbers were prefixed with 9, presumably because there were already local numbers beginning with every number from 2 through to 8.

andy9 wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 4:16pm:

It isn't a contradiction to have a local number for US mobiles. The tariffs are the same to call them, so why have any difference - in fact a local number is actually desirable, to make it cheaper (free) to call, including call diversion from home. If/when people move to a different area, they can apply for a new local number. Yes, there are national and regional cell networks, so in some cases they might need to change provider.

I suppose that's the issue. A mobile is, by definition, not fixed. So when one moves (within one particular country) it should be reasonable to expect to keep the telephone number.

trevord wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 4:58pm:

Dave wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 2:38pm:

Quote:

Under this scenario, phone customers would be less likely to switch to a new company if the company had to give them a telephone number with the new area code. Those customers would have to dial 10 digits much more often than an incumbent Bell company's customers. Also, all customers would be required to dial 10 digits to reach people who have new carriers when they would only have to dial seven digits for most of their other calls.

This tends to imply that if you change telecoms provider, you also have to change your telephone number - perhaps someone in the US can confirm whether that is true?

Can you port numbers between providers in the US like you can in the UK?

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idb

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Re: USA - Non-Geographic codes
Reply #62 - Mar 16^th, 2006 at 11:51pm

Dave wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 9:02am:

idb wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 6:03pm:

For local calls from my provider, they are unmetered. For calls within my area code that are outside the local charge area, calls are charged at a flat rate per call (it's either 10c, 20c or 25c, I can't recall without getting an old phone bill, and I'm not concerned about the charge). Long distance will depend upon the given LDD plan, if any.

So you may have three charging rates, as it were; local, non-local within area code and long-distance. But some numbers may be local in other areas codes.

That's correct - local (unmetered), non-local within my area code (25c flat rate per call) and long-distance (cost varies according to plan), or use other long distance provider. Local calls in some areas (not where I live) can cross area code and/or state boundaries.

idb wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 7:23pm:

PRS call charges are set by the provider of the service and are not specifically related to the numbering. For example, a call to a technical help desk may be charged at $5 per minute, another at $3 per minute. The costs are indicated on the advert or other promotional literature. This is why you won't get a figure from Bell South or indeed anyone else as the costs vary according to the service on offer. ...

It sounds like the UK's telecommunications industry could take a leaf out of the US' book. So there's none of the nonsense here like "Other providers may vary."

Agreed.

idb wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 8:00pm:

... 900 call charges can be removed from the bill if unpaid for 60 days.
What are you saying? If one doesn't pay their 900 bill then after 60 days the charges can be removed?

I'm not exactly sure what this means, but it is stated in my phone book!

idb wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 8:00pm:

From the FTC web site:

Billing Errors and Disputes
The 900 Number Rule has procedures for resolving billing disputes. [...] Your statement also must include a local or toll-free number for questions about your pay-per-call charges.
Unlike the UK where it's considered acceptable to rip the consumer off again with an 0870 or 0871 number. Roll Eyes

Yes, big difference!

idb wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 8:00pm:

If you find an error on your bill, follow the instructions on your statement. They will tell you who to call or write to dispute the charge. In most cases, it will be your local or long-distance telephone company, but it could be the 900 number company or an independent firm that provides billing services for that company.
So do you have two telephone companies? Why does it say "it will be your local or long-distance telephone company"?

Also, what it's saying is that you may dispute the charges with your telephone provider or with the service provider directly, depending on what it says.

A customer can choose a different provider for long-distance. Personally, all my long distance calls are made either with a calling card using a local geographic number or using the cellphone, so I've never needed to use an alternative LD carrier. I believe that all consumers have a choice of LD provider (deregulation).

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idb

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Re: USA - Non-Geographic codes
Reply #63 - Mar 17^th, 2006 at 12:04am

Dave wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 9:02am:

Bearing in mind that some of these are overseas, 'rouge' diallers and 'prize winning' scams being two examples of the worst kind, one clearly cannot hold out much hope of receiving any refund, as well as the concern that one must pass certain personal details to the service provider in order to get this refund.

Which brings me nicely onto the next question. Do you get overseas service providers operating on US premium rate numbers? And what about the rogue dialler scams, do they exist in the US?

I have not seen any evidence of rogue dialers - that's not to say they do not exist, but if they do, it isn't a major problem here. I do not know whether foreign SPs operate US PRS numbers - my assumption is that they do, but this could be wrong.

idb wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 8:17pm:

...As far as I know, I have never had to pay for a 800 call here, from landline, payphone or mobile (although airtime charges apply from cellular). Toll-free here means what it says.
How can a call be free and airtime charges apply? Surely that is a contradication; either it's free or not!

I believe this relates to the two elements that comprise a call charge - the toll charge relating to distance and the airtime charge (the charge for the time that the device is transmitting/receiving). For example unanswered calls of more than thirty seconds are charged airtime but no additional charge. With my plan, exactly what airtime means is largely irrelevant suffice to say that a call to a toll-free number is treated exactly the same ito cost as to any other local or long-distance number.

Dave wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 9:02am:

If all numbers within a particular area code are seven digits, why does the UK, being a smaller country, require eight digit local numbers, as is the case in London, Coventry and others? If seven digits is enough for one or more states, then doesn't that show mismanagement of the UK's telephone numbers?

I think this may stem from the obsession with the 35 mile BT rule from past times. I vaguely recall Shetland having two codes for 20,000 residents which demonstrates the inherent waste. I like the fixed length common format 3-3-4 numbering here. Very simple!

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idb

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Re: USA - Non-Geographic codes
Reply #64 - Mar 17^th, 2006 at 12:13am

trevord wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 11:13am:

..I think we also still have a lot of redundancy within non-metropolitan local area codes for historical reasons. For example, within my local area (01403 Horsham), most of the town numbers begin 2 and most of the out-lying village numbers begin 7 or 8 because those were originally local village exchanges with short numbers and local access codes (which had to be distinct from the town numbers); hence a local number beginning 79 still denotes my local village exchange. I believe the N.American numbering system overall is a lot older than ours and, I guess, they have filled the gaps in more over the years, whereas the UK has adopted a different approach to systemisation & expansion by increasing number lengths and area sizes whilst retaining the basic historical numbers.

Expansion of the system is being contemplated here. You may wish to look at http://www.lincmad.com/future.html to read about industry proposals and an alternative suggestion. Also a lot of historical info relating to US numbering here: http://www.lincmad.com/index.html

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jrawle

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Re: USA - Non-Geographic codes
Reply #65 - Mar 18^th, 2006 at 4:23pm

Dave wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 2:38pm:

So two (or more) area codes are in operation in the same area! As a result, one cannot dial numbers without a code. This is where different length codes are better.

Isn't this a backward step that a so-called numbering plan ends up with a hotch-potch of unrelated codes overlapping in one area? Thus, they are not codes, but prefixes for numbers as they must be dialed as one. Surely it would make more sense if they would bite the bullet and add another digit to all local numbers.

No, the Americans manage to introduce new numbers without changing the number of every household and business in the country, which is what Ofcom do. What does it matter if people have to dial the full number?

It think it's time we moved to compulsory 11-digit dialling in the UK. With 3 or 4 digit codes, it hardly makes any difference whether you have to dial them or not. This would free up lots of additional codes in the form of the present "national dialling numbers" (with the added bonus that BT would finally have to allow access to these numbers so they can no longer be used to block access to geographical equivalents to 0870 numbers!) Hopefully this would postpone the inevitable move to 12- and then 13- digit numbers that Ofcom is most likely planning right now...

Also we have a whole generation of people growing up who've never dialled a number without an area code as they've only ever used mobiles. They probably don't know local dialling is possible. The same thing applies to VoIP users. And you only have to look at, for example, London numbers advertised as 0207 123 4567 to know that people don't dial without the area code (if they tried 123 4567 they would not get through).

Anyway, in the 21st Century, how often do people actually "dial" a number (in that they will get a sore finger if there are too many digits, or have touble remembering a long number). What they will actually do is choose the number in the address book on their phone and press the "dial" button once.

trevord wrote on Mar 16^th, 2006 at 2:07pm:

Contrast this with Coventry's eight digit numbers. They were six digit local numbers, so why weren't they moved to a five digit code with seven digit local numbers like Sheffield? Is Ofcom expecting a sudden inrush into Coventry?

Because, Coventry's number was changes at part of "The Big Number" changes, and not on "PhOneday". In the most recent round of changes, all the code changes were to 02x xxyy yyyy numbers. Had they decided Coventry needed a new code when the earlier changes were made, it would no doubt have been in the form 01xx xyy yyyy.

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idb

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Re: USA - Non-Geographic codes
Reply #66 - Mar 18^th, 2006 at 5:46pm

jrawle wrote on Mar 18^th, 2006 at 4:23pm:

No, the Americans manage to introduce new numbers without changing the number of every household and business in the country, which is what Ofcom do. What does it matter if people have to dial the full number?

It think it's time we moved to compulsory 11-digit dialling in the UK. With 3 or 4 digit codes, it hardly makes any difference whether you have to dial them or not. This would free up lots of additional codes in the form of the present "national dialling numbers" (with the added bonus that BT would finally have to allow access to these numbers so they can no longer be used to block access to geographical equivalents to 0870 numbers!) Hopefully this would postpone the inevitable move to 12- and then 13- digit numbers that Ofcom is most likely planning right now...

Spot on! Whilst growth has forced changes to the NANP, with overlays and additional codes, the management of such change has been performed far better than has happened in the UK. As I stated earlier, the NANP may be far from perfect, but at least it is generally understandable, and a reasonable idea of cost can be determined prior to establishing the call. Originally, the state of FL only had one area code, 305 (which is now the code for Miami-Dade county and parts of Monroe County. Now, FL has far more codes, but the introduction of new ones has been generally painless. If I want to call a business in, say Seattle, given that business uses 'standard' numbering, I could simply call my provider and ask for a long distance call rate is I was unaware of the cost. Compare with an individual in say Sheffield calling a business with say an 0844 23 number. It appears that half of the time, even BT call center people have absolutely no idea of charge rates to NGNs. Look at the BT publication for specialized numbers which runs to (from memory) almost 50 pages!! This is why the system here is far superior to that in the UK. No NGNs of any great significance (except toll-free which meand free), mobile numbers treated exactly the same as fixed, and no nonsense about blocking certain 'national only dialing' numbers. Yes, it isn't perfect, but it works. Ofcom is responsible for the mess, but not accountable. There is no hope whilst the regulator is staffed by idiots - even respondiong to consultations is now, in my opinion, a waste of time.

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mikeinnc

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Re: USA - Non-Geographic codes
Reply #67 - Mar 18^th, 2006 at 7:16pm

Quote from IDB Posted on: 16. Mar 2006 at 23:51

Quote:

I have not seen any evidence of rogue dialers - that's not to say they do not exist, but if they do, it isn't a major problem here.

Last year, a friend called to say her computer was behaving strangely. It didn't take long to realise that she had a rouge dialer on it. She looked at her phone bill, which had arrived that morning and there was about $45.00 of calls to an unknown Austrian number. I advised to call her local provider, Bellsouth which she did. They immediately told her that she did not have to pay that component of the account. They also advised her that if there were any further charges on the next bill (as the dialer had been active until that day), they too would be waived. As it happens, there were - about $80.00 this time - and they were waived.

There was no fuss about this. No arguments. Just an extremely helpful customer service representative who managed to solve a potentially difficult and expensive situation immediately.

The computer was fixed, and my friend is now on broadband.

I would like to think that Bellsouth can do that, not only because they actually know what the words "customer service" mean, but also because, as I think idb said, the telcos here in the US are not obliged to pay these sorts of account for quite some time after they appear. This gives a customer plenty of time to query the charge. And - once that is done, the charge is at least suspended, and - as here - often removed immediately.

Now compare that to the UK where I understand BT are hounding innocent users for hundreds (thousands?) of pounds for bills caused by rouge dialers which they openly admit to being a scam..... Angry

So where is OFCOM as the "representative of the consumer" in all this? What a joke! Undecided

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Shiggaddi

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Re: USA - Non-Geographic codes
Reply #68 - Mar 18^th, 2006 at 10:36pm

Now if Vodafone and T-mobile had the same attitude to customer service as Bell South, when I was conned by unsolicited reverse charge text, then I wouldn't have wasted so much time complaining.

Last year, I noticed loads of reverse charge texts on my t-mobile bill. I queried it with them, and their final answer was that because it was on the bill, it must be paid. I said I wasn't satisfied, and was given an address to write into to complain. I then received a letter back saying exactly the same, that because they appear on the bill, they must be paid.

It was only after phoning again to register my disgust at their findings, I asked them what these texts were, and they admitted they could only be sent to my phone, if I was using WAP at the time of the texts. It was clear I wasn't connected, so it must be a computer error after all. They then waived the charges, and I pressed them for further compensation to account for my time, and postage costs, and a months free line rental was agreed. Was an uphill struggle to get this far, and still no explaination as to how it happened, just a refund of the charges.

With Vodafone, I was sent a reverse charge text, and all Vodafone would do is say that they collect it on behalf of Zim, and if I have a complaint I must take it up with Zim (on an 0870 number!!)

I did successfully get compensation from Zim, including refund for my time, and the 0870 call, but only after plenty of complaining!!

Imagine how easy life would have been, if I had just been able to call up T-mobile, or Vodafone customer services, told them about the texts, and for them to refund immediately, or at least investigate my dispute. Perhaps Bell South should come over here, and take over either BT, or one of the mobile networks. If they use the American principle on customer service, instead of British, I'm sure they'll have alot of satisfied customers.

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I realy hait itt wen peeple canot spel proply. Itt getts onn mye nervs sew mutch annd streses mee owt. Knot onley iz itt vary bade speling butt allso bade gramer.

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Tanllan

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Re: USA - Non-Geographic codes
Reply #69 - Mar 18^th, 2006 at 11:12pm

Shiggaddi wrote on Mar 18^th, 2006 at 10:36pm:

Imagine how easy life would have been, if I had just been able to call up T-mobile, or Vodafone customer services, told them about the texts, and for them to refund immediately, or at least investigate my dispute. Perhaps Bell South should come over here, and take over either BT, or one of the mobile networks. If they use the American principle on customer service, instead of British, I'm sure they'll have alot of satisfied customers.

It is all similar to the Continuous Charging Authorities (CCA) operated by credit card companies - you can not cancel it/them. And with these texts you have not even signed an agreement - and only have a contract with the mobile service (hah) provider.
Hello Ofcom - anybody there?

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Shiggaddi

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Re: USA - Non-Geographic codes
Reply #70 - Mar 19^th, 2006 at 10:42am

Tanllan wrote on Mar 18^th, 2006 at 11:12pm:

Shiggaddi wrote on Mar 18^th, 2006 at 10:36pm:

Imagine how easy life would have been, if I had just been able to call up T-mobile, or Vodafone customer services, told them about the texts, and for them to refund immediately, or at least investigate my dispute. Perhaps Bell South should come over here, and take over either BT, or one of the mobile networks. If they use the American principle on customer service, instead of British, I'm sure they'll have alot of satisfied customers.

It is all similar to the Continuous Charging Authorities (CCA) operated by credit card companies - you can not cancel it/them. And with these texts you have not even signed an agreement - and only have a contract with the mobile service (hah) provider.
Hello Ofcom - anybody there?

At least with the credit card continuous charging authority, you did sign up with them in the first place and give them your card details, even if some companies do continue to charge once you've cancelled.

If you spot a frauduelent transaction from someone you don't recognise, then you arrange a chargeback and the credit card companies usually help in the matter.

With the phone, companies can help themselves to your phone number, which is all they need to authorise payments from your mobile phone account, and although they should usually get authorisation (ie a text to their short code) they don't need it and can routinely charge numbers at random, and in the case of Zim, they rely of people not realising they've been charged, to make their profit. However, I was able to get compensation from them, for the text, my time, and calling their 0870 complaint line!!

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I realy hait itt wen peeple canot spel proply. Itt getts onn mye nervs sew mutch annd streses mee owt. Knot onley iz itt vary bade speling butt allso bade gramer.

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Re: USA - Non-Geographic codes
Reply #71 - Mar 20^th, 2006 at 1:48pm

idb wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 7:48pm:

bbb_uk wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 7:41pm:

IDB, what is the average cost of line rental in the States for comparitive reasons to what we get charged here (£11 by BT)?

I do not know the average cost within the US, but my Bell South bill, which provides unmetered local calling within the local area and 25c flat rate per call drop within the county outside of the local area, with CLI, ACR, basic voice mail and call waiting is $41 per month. Take off around $8 per month to exclude the extras (CLI etc). So, just over $120 per quarter, or 68 pounds per quarter. I have no idea of the current cost of BT basic line rental, but I believe it to be less than what I pay here. Nevertheless customer service from Bell South is excellent - you actually speak to someone who knows the area and is not situated thousands of miles away. Having been through three hurricanes, with most utility wiring exposed to the elements, they do a great job here in sunny FL.

Just received my March bill from Bell South. The charges are as follows:

Local monthly service $27.00
(includes 3-way calling, call waiting 'deluxe', call return *69 (equiv to UK 1471), caller ID name and number and anonymous call rejection)
Permits unmetered calling throughout my local call area and 25c flat rate to extended calling area within county.

Government taxes $4.55
(Federal excise tax $1.03, FL state communication tax $0.81, FL local communication tax $2.06, telecommunication access system act surcharge $0.15, emergency 911 charge $0.50)

Surcharges and other fees $7.16
(FCC authorized charge for network access $6.50, federal universal service charge $0.66)

Total local and local toll charges = $38.71

I do not use Bell South for LD, so no long-distance charges.

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Dave

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Re: USA - Non-Geographic codes
Reply #72 - Mar 26^th, 2006 at 8:49am

This is a very interesting discussion. I think there's no doubt that the US is far far better at policing premium rate numbers. A premium rate telephone number is essentially a way of transferring funds from the caller to the service provider. Credit cards and other payment methods provide protection to the consumer, but UK 084/087/09 numbers and reverse-charged premium rate SMS don't have such protection measures in place.

The other point about the way in which overlay codes mean that the code must be dialled, even for subscribers residing in that area code, I'm not so sure about. On the plus side it means equal length codes and local numbers. But to have to codes in one area seems a messy solution.

I suppose it's what you're used to. Although with more and more providers, who each want their own numbers within each STD code, it is inevitable that there will be wastage where telcos register 10,000 numbers per code. What's more, as far as conservation of numbers goes, what incentives are put to telcos? I think that this is covered in the latest numbering review consultation.

I'm unsure whether it's relevant, but I'll mention it anyway. Adding an overlay code, as in the US, will double (for a second area code) the number of numbers available. But adding an extra digit (as has been done in the UK) will, roughly speaking, increase capacity by a factor of 10. I say roughly because numbers starting 99 are presumably avoided. In the short term, the may represent an inefficiency whereas, the former has less wastage, but several unrelated codes may be necessary.

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Re: USA - Non-Geographic codes
Reply #73 - Mar 28^th, 2006 at 1:51pm

Dave wrote on Mar 26^th, 2006 at 8:49am:

... adding an extra digit (as has been done in the UK) will, roughly speaking, increase capacity by a factor of 10. I say roughly because numbers starting 99 are presumably avoided.

In the UK the factor is fractionally less than 8 - geo numbers cannot begin with 0 or 1. They can begin with 99, but not of course with 999.

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