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BT to be taken to court over Direct Debit charges (Read 55,343 times)
Heinz
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Re: BT to be taken to court over Direct Debit char
Reply #45 - Mar 1st, 2008 at 1:53pm
 
janitor wrote on Mar 1st, 2008 at 12:53pm:
i have a friend who is severely disabled and has to live off benefits, couldn't use a bank if they wanted to, also made harder due to all the high st banks closing the branches any where nearby, so has to use the post-office.

A lot (most?) of banks now offer services via the Post Office.  I'm with A&L and Lloyds TSB and, on both, pay cheques in as well as withdraw cash at my village Post Office.

Quote:
If you have a basic bank account with one of the banks / building societies listed below you can take out cash free at the counter of Post Office™ branches using your card and PIN. Click on the links below to find out more about the services offered.

    * Abbey
    * Alliance & Leicester
    * Bank of Ireland
    * Bank of Scotland
    * Barclays
    * Clydesdale Bank
    * The Co-operative Bank
    * First Trust Bank
    * Halifax
    * HSBC
    * Lloyds TSB
    * Nationwide Building Society
    * NatWest
    * Northern Bank
    * The Royal Bank of Scotland
    * Ulster Bank
    * Yorkshire Bank
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« Last Edit: Mar 1st, 2008 at 1:56pm by Heinz »  

After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015
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dorf
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Re: BT to be taken to court over Direct Debit char
Reply #46 - Mar 1st, 2008 at 9:33pm
 
What the latter part of this discussion is overlooking in my opinion is choice. Those of us who dislike DDs for the reasons I have listed previously, which are the usual ones (not anything to do with credit rating or wealth as some have wrongly presumed) will not choose to be a patron of any dictatorial enterprise which makes additional charges for not paying by DD, if they have a free choice. For instance I have chosen my electricity and gas supplier principally because they are one of the few who charge the same price per unit however you choose to pay them, even if you do not want to pay using DD!

It is all about freedom of choice. Just as the issue with non-09 NGNs being used as disguised premium numbers with unlimited chargeable call queuing is about there being no choice for consumers, if entities do not publish their underlying GN to which the revenue-collecting calls are directed, so it is with true line rental, and as it happens also with current water and sewerage services! There is no choice. For me a company which states their honest pricing and does not resort to tricks like attempting to make more revenue from the use of call centres using disguised premium numbers with call queuing will be the one I will choose, and I will shun the others!

Any student of even elementary Economics learns early on that monopoly is a bad thing in a Market Economy, simply because any commercial entity with a monopoly can hold consumers to ransom; it has total control over the price of the product or service which it markets. This is the continuing problem with water, sewerage and line telecommunications services. When they were privatised the implementation was decided upon by complete idiots like Thatcher, who was in reality only interested in panic selling of the nations family silver to try in desperation to reduce the enormous UK budget deficit caused by her government's total economic incompetence. The issue of monopoly was not properly considered for water, sewerage and line telecommunications and that is how we got into the total mess we are in now.

So this issue is really about the continuation of BT's virtual monopoly and SMP which has never been properly addressed, and is used by Ofcom to continue the status quo with their buddies, particularly in their freeing BT from price controls, although they still have virtual monopoly and SMP. Anyone with any business and economic understanding could see that this fatuous and corrupt move of Ofcom would lead to what is now emerging. BT still have in reality a complete monopoly of the PSTN. The fact that they sell some capacity to other providers on a supposedly wholesale basis in reality makes no difference whatsoever, since they can now set virtually all of the prices for their monopoly services on both a wholesale and retail basis. This is why there is hardly any difference in line rental cost between BT and any of the other providers; the other providers cannot compete effectively because BT in reality still control the PSTN pricing base, and use this to distort call pricing. This is why as soon as BT increase their prices for line rental (in the form of their supposed obligatory "Option" packages, now attempted to be disguised as "free calls" packages) all other providers charges for line rental immediately increase by virtually the same amount. BT continue to control the whole pricing structure.

So, the issue of DDs or not is part of this scenario. If there were real choice and real competition a consumer could decide to become a patron of a totally different service with its own independent pricing structure and a policy of not victimizing those who may choose not to pay by DD. (Any related true accounting and collection cost differences can easily be covered by charging interest on late payments.) However there is no such true choice in line telecommunications in the UK, because Thatcher and her puppet ministers clearly did not understand the first thing about real Economics, nor care what they were doing. So that is why some of us resent a dictat of paying by DD or otherwise being charged more - where there is no effective free choice. In my opinion the PSTN should be sequestered from BT and run as a service like TRANSCO. BT should be made to offer a telecommunications service to customers on the PSTN on the same basis as all other providers with no virtual monopoly and no SMP advantage. That is the only way now that the current distortion of competition can be ended. Other providers could then compete on the basis of a true level playing field and some could choose not to penalise their customers in the way in which BT are doing if customers do not agree to what BT dictates, and are able to do only because of their continued virtual monopoly and SMP; we would then see proper competition and BT would have to change their attitude or become a very much smaller player and a relatively unsuccessful company.

This is what is at the base of the true issue here with paying by DDs or not - freedom of choice. There is none effectively in line telecommunications in the UK!
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« Last Edit: Mar 1st, 2008 at 9:44pm by dorf »  

Ofcom are completely ineffectual
 
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Dave
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Re: BT to be taken to court over Direct Debit char
Reply #47 - Mar 26th, 2009 at 11:49pm
 
Source: BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7966625.stm

BT direct debit rebel loses case

A Nottingham man who took BT to court after being cut off in a row over how to pay his bill has lost his case.

Dennis Andrews, 85, refused to pay an extra £4.50 every quarter for not using direct debit, and when cut off sued for breach of contract.

At a preliminary hearing in Nottingham a county court judge ruled BT had acted legally and the case need not proceed.

Mr Andrews, who claimed BT was in effect charging him twice, now faces paying £2,000 in court costs.

BT changed its charging policy in May 2007 so that those paying by cheque faced an annual extra £18 charge.

The company said the charge was fair as it cost the company more to process non-direct debit payments.

Mr Andrews insisted his normal bill, paid by cheque, should cover all services including administration.

But Judge Robert Severn ruled BT had the right to vary the terms and conditions of contracts and Mr Andrews had been properly informed of all changes.
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NGMsGhost
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Re: BT to be taken to court over Direct Debit char
Reply #48 - Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:38am
 
Looks like this judge is an establishment yes man with no concept of consumer rights.

What is alarming about the judicial system is just how unpredictable the interpretation of the law by different judges can be.
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lompos
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Re: BT to be taken to court over Direct Debit char
Reply #49 - Mar 31st, 2009 at 11:36am
 
Quote:
BT changed its charging policy in May 2007 so that those paying by cheque faced an annual extra £18 charge.


It is not only people who pay by cheque who are penalised but everybody who does not pay by direct debit. I pay by electronic transfer and still have to pay the £4.50/quarter charge.

There may be some justification in BT claiming extra admin costs for handling cheques but it seems to me that electronic transfers are the same as direct debits as far as handling costs are concerned - virtually zero as they are automated.  The only extra cost I can imagine is if somebody doesn't pay and they have to send a reminder.  However this would not justify an annual charge of £18 for everybody

I wonder if the judge would have decided differently if electronic transfer rather than cheque payment had been put to him?
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Heinz
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Re: BT to be taken to court over Direct Debit char
Reply #50 - Mar 31st, 2009 at 6:49pm
 
Quote:
It is not only people who pay by cheque who are penalised but everybody who does not pay by direct debit. I pay by electronic transfer and still have to pay the £4.50/quarter charge.

You appear to have missed the workaround.  Set up the Direct Debit payment system but still pay, a few days before, by electronic transfer.

The balance is therefore zero at the time the DD should be called, so it's not called.
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« Last Edit: Mar 31st, 2009 at 6:53pm by Heinz »  

After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015
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Kiwi_g
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Reply #51 - Mar 31st, 2009 at 12:13pm
 
People have a misconception about how direct debits work.

Any payment whether by cheque or BACS transfer will result in a single credit to that bank account. 

For direct debits, a whole batch of transactions are submitted by the originator and only one credit will appear on the bank statement.  If an individual direct debit is subsequently rejected, than that will be apparent 3 days after the original submission was processed.

Where the customer personally initiates the payment, the recipient will not be aware of when the funds are to be received and will need to review matters daily.

Direct debits mean much less work for the originators and in a large organisation efficiencies will result.

Below is the direct debit guarantee which all originators must abide by.

•      This Guarantee is offered by all Banks and Building Societies that take part in the Direct Debit Scheme.
The efficiency and security of the Scheme is monitored and protected by your own Bank or Building Society.
•      If the amounts to be paid or the payment dates change Gullands will notify you 28  working days in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed.
•      If an error is made by ***** or your Bank or Building Society, you are guaranteed a full and immediate refund from your branch of the amount paid.
•      You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by writing to your Bank or Building Society.
Please also send a copy of your letter to us.


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lompos
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Re: BT to be taken to court over Direct Debit char
Reply #52 - Mar 31st, 2009 at 9:19pm
 
Quote:
Direct debits mean much less work for the originators and in a large organisation efficiencies will result.


Can you quantify how much less work is involved in processing Direct Debits compared to electronic transfers or, putting it the other way, does the extra work handling electronic transfers cost £18/year - or perhaps only measurable in pennies?

Has anybody a view on how a court would look at a challenge similar to Dennis Andrews's if the issue raised was payment by electronic transfer rather than cheque? How might BT actually justify the £18/year penalty charge?
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: BT to be taken to court over Direct Debit char
Reply #53 - Apr 2nd, 2009 at 3:50am
 
I offer a personal view, whilst very ready to hear the arguments from those who do not believe that BT should be allowed to offer a discount to those who pay by Direct Debit. (Discount / surcharge - BT draws its income from customers one way or another, it is simply a question of how this is balanced.)

For some time I was very reluctant to agree to Direct Debits, however my resolve weakened because of the difficulty in remembering to pay every bill at the right time. I have had a number of disputes about amounts collected by Direct Debit. On every occassion, my bank has honoured the spirit of the guarantee, invariably applying the terms with a bias in my favour and providing a refund at its expense. I cannot assert that everyone would always have the same experience with every bank, however I would advise anyone to accept the offer of a payment by Direct Debit, unless they had quite strong reasons not to do so.
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