SAYNOTO0870.COM - Doctors' phone line use reviewed

loddon

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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #255 - Jan 26^th, 2010 at 8:28pm

In comment on the article about GPs' phone numbers in todays Daily Mail :---
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1246064/Millions-patients-pay-40p-minute...

someone calling himself Joe from Derbyshire says :---

"I hate to tell you, but in actual fact you are wrong and NEG are correct. The Department of Health guidelines do not apply in any way, shape or form to mobile phone charges, which has been confirmed in meetings between the lead policy officials in the Department with the industry."

So the DoH has said to the "industry" that the guidelines do not apply in any way, shape or form to mobile phone charges!!!! Shocked

If this is true we must wonder what sort of incompetent, moronic, uncaring buffoons are managing all this? Sad

Are they really as useless and hopeless as we fear? Sad

What about the Minister's statement in Parliament on 12th January when he said "patients should not be expected to pay more than the cost of a local call to contact the NHS, including doctors’ surgeries. GPs will have this year to end the practice completely and get out of any contracts that cause that to happen.
Mr. O’Brien: I agree that we need to ensure that this practice of some GPs charging more than a local rate for contact ends as quickly as possible. We have made it absolutely clear to GPs that they must get out of these contracts ....... with the GPs to see whether we can get them all out of this[/highlight] as soon as possible. They have all got to be out by 21 December, but we want them to be out now, or as soon as they possibly can be. "

Anyway, it doesn't really matter if they choose to ignore mobile phone charges -- does it? -- because 0844 cost more than geographic numbers on all tariffs with all phone companies don't they?? Wink

Alls well that ends well!!

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1246064/Millions-patients-pay-40p-minute...

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« Last Edit: Jan 26^th, 2010 at 8:29pm by loddon »

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #256 - Jan 27^th, 2010 at 12:20am

loddon wrote on Jan 26^th, 2010 at 8:28pm:

someone calling himself Joe from Derbyshire says :---

"I hate to tell you, but in actual fact you are wrong and NEG are correct. The Department of Health guidelines do not apply in any way, shape or form to mobile phone charges, which has been confirmed in meetings between the lead policy officials in the Department with the industry."

So the DoH has said to the "industry" that the guidelines do not apply in any way, shape or form to mobile phone charges!!!!

If this is true we must wonder what sort of incompetent, moronic, uncaring buffoons are managing all this? Are they really as useless and hopeless as we fear?

Anyway, it doesn't really matter if they choose to ignore mobile phone charges -- does it? -- because 0844 cost more than geographic numbers on all tariffs with all phone companies don't they?

Some interesting questions!

In judging how much credence to give to "Joe's" comments, it may be helpful to note that, after acclaiming the benefits achieved by use of non-geographic numbers, he refers to calls from landlines saying
Quote:

the fact that it costs no more than the cost of a geographic number is a win-win.

It may be unfair to suggest that such close alignment with the position of NEG indicates that the same degree of dishonesty applies to all of Joe's comments. I do not however know of anyone else in the industry, other than NEG, who would have met with DoH policy officials and holds the view that all calls from landlines to 0844 numbers cost no more than those to a geographic number.

I have not found anything published by the DoH which refers explicitly to any exclusion of calls from mobiles. There are many references to "local rate" and "local call", which cannot apply to calls from mobiles. These terms can apply to calls from landlines, even though most residential tariffs do not make a distinction between "local" and "national" calls.

We are still awaiting clarification from the DoH about how its position is to be interpreted. NEG and the BMA GPC are clearly "playing hard-ball" and the DoH has been slow to dismiss their comments. There is however still much to play for; we must not assume that the only team that could deliver us a victory has already thrown in the towel.

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loddon

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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #257 - Jan 27^th, 2010 at 11:15am

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 27^th, 2010 at 12:20am:

We are still awaiting clarification from the DoH about how its position is to be interpreted. NEG and the BMA GPC are clearly "playing hard-ball" and the DoH has been slow to dismiss their comments. There is however still much to play for; we must not assume that the only team that could deliver us a victory has already thrown in the towel.

I have to agree with you SCV. I suppose my frustration and disappointment with the apparent indecision of the DoH and Ministers show through sometimes. Huh

I just can't help thinking that all this protracted negotiation and "hard-ball" between DoH,NEG and BMA could have been avoided if they had been clear and decisive in the Response to the Consultation, the Minister's Statement in September and the Directions issued in December. The difficulty is that they have left their decisions, Statements and Directions open to "interpretation" and this is allowing NEG and the BMA to put out misleading information and announcements.

The exception to all this lack of clarity is the Statement by the Minister, Mike O'Brien in Parliament on 12th January 2010 when he said " ....... we need to ensure that this practice of some GPs charging more than a local rate for contact ends as quickly as possible. [b]We have made it absolutely clear to GPs that they must get out of these contracts[/b]-a number of practices have signed up to and are legally bound by them-and they have the year to do so. We have engaged with some of the companies involved and, to be fair to them, they have said they are prepared to negotiate equitable arrangements with the GPs to see whether we can get them all out of this as soon as possible. They have all got to be out by 21 December, but we want them to be out now, or as soon as they possibly can be."

That is clear enough for me. I just want to see the Minister take action to back up his words.

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loddon

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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #258 - Jan 27^th, 2010 at 5:51pm

The last few readers comments on the article in the Daily Mail make for interesting reading:---
(Note that there is only one comment with a net negative rating.)

To:-- George - Berkshire...

I hate to tell you, but in actual fact you are wrong and NEG are correct. The Department of Health guidelines do not apply in any way, shape or form to mobile phone charges, which has been confirmed in meetings between the lead policy officials in the Department with the industry.

With a geographic line, the most frequent thing a patient experiences is the engaged tone - which means they can't get through at all. This happens to millions of patients every month. Products like NEG's Surgery Line means that patients ALWAYS get through to the surgery and frequently can get through direct to targeted health information and automated bookings and repeat prescription services, without having to queue at all. It's called a 21st Century service and the fact that it costs no more than the cost of a geographic number is a win-win.
- Joe, Derbyshire, 26/1/2010 18:13
Click to rate Rating -6
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To:-- Joe, Derbyshire. No you are wrong. The Dept of Health Directions do not distinguish between landlines and mobiles, are all embracing, and state that "patients must not be compelled to pay any more than if they had dialled an equivalent geographic number".

0844 is always more expensive to call on all tariffs and is never included in any call package, therefore 0844 must not be used at all. Health Minister Mike O'Brien made this perfectly clear in Parliament in answer to L Robertson MP on 12th January 2010 when he said "GPs will have this year to end the practice completely and get out of any contracts..."

The Minister says that it is not allowed to use 0844 so NEG must stop selling sytems which use rip-off numbers. Any normal geographic number can handle call queueing and all the other facilities. You do NOT need 0844.
- George, Berkshire, 26/1/2010 19:31
Click to rate Rating +1
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Government policy should be in favour of the consumer, in this case the Regulator should direct that wherever any premium 08 number is displayed then the related geographical number must also be displayed.
Telephoning the doctor must not be allowed to turn into the GP's equivalent to the English hospitals car parking cash cow.
- Chris Goodman, Fareham, 26/1/2010 21:31
Click to rate Rating +2
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The Department of Health announced in Sept 2009 that 084 numbers are banned if they cause patients to pay more than if they had dialled a normal geogrphic number. This was emphasised by Health Minister in January this year and he said that GPs must get out of all of their contracts using 0844 by December this year.
What are the PCTs doing about this and why doesn't the BMA comply now?
0844 numbers are totally unacceptable.
- Trevor, Wiltshire, 26/1/2010 21:52
Click to rate Rating +1
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NEG is a thoroughly deceitful body which uses half-truths and outright lies to deceive both patients and the NHS, for example its claims that 084 numbers are 'lo-call' rated and, [quoted directly from its literature] that "cost of calls from mobiles remains unchanged"; both statements clearly untrue (ie lies) . It is also placing lives at risk by using telephone numbers that have no guarantee of international termination, unlike the situation with 'normal' geographic numbering. NEG may well claim that callers from overseas can call such numbers, and that is true, but there is absolutely no assurance, both from developed and developing countries, that calls to +44 844 can be completed. Such evidence is freely available from a web search, and can also be readily confirmed with the regulator, Ofcom. For any health care provider to be using a number that leaves doubt as to international calling capability is a disgrace and potentially very serious. Shameful.
- Ian, Miami, USA, 27/1/2010 1:52
Click to rate Rating +4
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To:-- Joe of Derbyshire.
My GP has an 0844 number.

It is not cheaper to call either from my landline (with BT) and certainly not from my mobile.
I still get the engaged tone so do not always get through as you state.
Furthermore since my GPs move to the non geographic number I have had many more incidences of getting through bizarrely to an estate agent ( similar number) now if I was dialling it then it could be my error I accept however I was using my mobile where the number is pre- stored so more pre-historic service than a 21st centrury one.
Cant wait until they move back!
- J, Birmingham, 27/1/2010 17:06
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« Last Edit: Jan 27^th, 2010 at 5:52pm by loddon »

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joli

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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #259 - Feb 1^st, 2010 at 11:24am

I was astonished to get this statement from my local PCT today:
The Department of Health direction only covers NHS bodies, which does not include GP practices, as these are independent contractors. As such, the new direction does not give us any additional or new means of requiring GP practices that currently use 084 numbers to comply with this direction.
I was convinced that PCTs had been told to get their GP practices to stop this rip-off.

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #260 - Feb 1^st, 2010 at 4:15pm

joli wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 11:24am:

I was astonished to get this statement from my local PCT today:
The Department of Health direction only covers NHS bodies, which does not include GP practices, as these are independent contractors. As such, the new direction does not give us any additional or new means of requiring GP practices that currently use 084 numbers to comply with this direction.
I was convinced that PCTs had been told to get their GP practices to stop this rip-off.

No, the situation has been misrepresented, but all will come straight in time.

The PCT is correct for now.

To place the same, or a similar requirement on those providing NHS services under contract, the relevant contracts will need to be amended. Work is known to be underway on amendments to the GMS contract (covering most GPs) and these are thought likely to come into effect from April 2010. The comments published by the BMA GPC, in advance of publication of the actual revised terms of the contract, lead one to assume that the relevant terms will be very similar to those contained in the Directions to NHS bodies. The point at issue will be the question of whether patients pay more than the cost of an equivalent call to a geographic number. The BMA suggests that assurances from a telephone system provider (who does not directly provide telephone service to anyone) should be sufficient.

There is no harm in raising the issue gently with the PCT about what action it will take when the expected changes to the GMS contract come into effect.

There is no news yet of the necessary changes to contracts for NHS dentists, pharmacists and ophthalmologists. It may be worth asking the PCT what it may know about this.

This thread is littered with links to the relevant publications. I will be happy to respond to a request for these and any other information by email.

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Dave

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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #261 - Feb 28^th, 2010 at 5:36pm

Heart of Birmingham PCT is leading the way on working to get its GPs off 084 numbers and onto 034 ones. It was reported in July and posted on our forum the PCT's efforts.

I have some across some other information on this PCT:

Heart of Birmingham TPCT – Trust Board
October 2009

http://www.hobtpct.nhs.uk/_docs/board/trust/2009/200910/Encl%2018%20ICT%20Trust%...

Quote:

2.8 GP VOIP Telephony Services General Practice & 0845 to 0345 changes

To improve patient call access to primary care services, the PCT agreed to part fund GP Practices to improve existing telephony services. The ICT team have been proactively calling GP Practices to inform them of the potential services available.

HOB ICT department have also been engaging with a 3rd party recommended supplier to change 0845 telephone numbers to 0345 to assist in reducing patient call costs to GP practices. The PCT have agreed initially to fund the additional call charges associated with 0345 numbers for at least two years. There are some GP practices reluctant to change to 0345 numbers as concerns over who picks up the costs from year 3 onwards.

The current status is as follows:
o 13 GP Sites currently live with N3 Hosted VOIP solution
o 7 GP Sites awaiting installation dates from N3
o 16 GP Sites quoted awaiting confirmation
o 19 GP Sites live with 0345 numbers for patient call access
o 17 GP Sites pending 0345 number acceptance

Reports are due shortly giving us detailed patient call statistics from GP’s surgeries using 0345 numbers.

Heart of Birmingham TPCT – Trust Board
February 2010

http://www.hobtpct.nhs.uk/_docs/board/trust/2010/201002/Encl%2013%20ICT%20Update...

Quote:

2.8 GP VOIP Telephony Services General Practice & 0845 to 0345 changes

To improve patient call access to primary care services, the PCT agreed to part fund GP Practices to improve existing telephony services. This has been done by providing N3 Hosted VOIP telephony systems in line with PCT/Community sites

The ICT Department has also been engaging with a 3rd party recommended supplier to change 0845 telephone numbers to 0345 to assist in reducing patient call costs to GP practices.

The current status is as follows:
o 20 GP Sites currently live with N3 Hosted VOIP solution
o 1 GP Sites awaiting installation dates from N3
o 29 GP Sites live with 0345 numbers for patient call access
o 12 GP Sites pending 0345 number acceptance

Reports are received detailing patient call statistics from GP’s surgeries using 0345 numbers.

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Dave

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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #262 - Mar 6^th, 2010 at 5:28pm

Source: Leicester City Community Health Service

http://www.lcchs.nhs.uk/PatientExperienceGroupnotes14december2009approved-doc.cm...

Quote:

PATIENT EXPERIENCE GROUP
NOTES FROM THE MEETING HELD ON
MONDAY 14 DECEMBER 2009 AT 2.00PM AM AT BRIDGE PARK PLAZA

…

Urgent Care Centre (0845 number)
AG mentioned that at the last open evening a question was asked by a member of public with regard to the 0845 number used at the Urgent Care Centre (UCC). AG noted that the UCC contracts the triaging service from the County PCT who use the 0845 number. LCCHS is aware of the issues relating to the use of these numbers but is awaiting the outcome of an application to become a pilot site for the use of a new 3 digits number to contact the UCC. This will operate in the same way as the current 999 number. To change from an 0845 number to an interim number and then to a 3 digit number would be confusing to patients and expensive to market – for these reasons the number will remain in place until the outcome of the application to be a pilot site is known.

AG has asked Kim Wilding who manages the UCC to attend the next the PEG meeting and give a short brief on its role.

…

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« Last Edit: Mar 6^th, 2010 at 5:29pm by Dave »

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CJT-80

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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #263 - Mar 6^th, 2010 at 10:16pm

Dave wrote on Dec 16^th, 2008 at 6:20am:

The consultation document can be downloaded from Department of Health here:

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Consultations/Liveconsultations/DH_091879

The deadline for responses is 31 March 2009.

Source: BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7783963.stm

Doctors' phone line use reviewed
By Jane Dreaper
BBC News health correspondent

<<
A ban on the use, by GP surgeries and other parts of the NHS, of phone numbers which begin with 084 is being considered say ministers.

They have launched an England-wide consultation to ask with people whether they want to keep the numbers.

Doctors say the new systems enable them to offer patients a better service.

But campaigners argue using the more expensive numbers is against the founding principles of the NHS, which should be "free at the point of need."

Increasing numbers of GP surgeries, hospitals and primary care trusts now have 084 numbers for patients use, such as when booking appointments.

Callers to the numbers are put in a queue, rather than encountering a constantly engaged tone.

Any revenue that is raised has to go towards the cost of the phone systems.

However complaints over the use of the numbers - which are usually more expensive than local calls - have lead to a government rethink.

Over the next three months people in England will be able to give their views on whether the practice should be allowed to continue.

…
>>

I am contacting EVERYONE who I know that I feel will be happy to fill out this consultation.. I am also including a few links within the message I send to them to highlight why I feel the NHS/Dr's Surgeries do not need or have any use for 0844 numbers other than to generate profits for themselves or the likes of NEG. I feel we all ready pay enough to the NHS / Govt and therefore should NOT be expected to pay any more to contact such essential services.

Many thanks to the users of this forum inc Dave for highlighting this consultation.. ( I appeared to have not noticed it earlier) Undecided

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CJT-80

Any comments made are my own and are not those of SayNoTo0870.com

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Dave

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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #264 - Mar 6^th, 2010 at 10:56pm

CJT-80 wrote on Mar 6^th, 2010 at 10:16pm:

I am contacting EVERYONE who I know that I feel will be happy to fill out this consultation.. I am also including a few links within the message I send to them to highlight why I feel the NHS/Dr's Surgeries do not need or have any use for 0844 numbers other than to generate profits for themselves or the likes of NEG. I feel we all ready pay enough to the NHS / Govt and therefore should NOT be expected to pay any more to contact such essential services.

Many thanks to the users of this forum inc Dave for highlighting this consultation.. ( I appeared to have not noticed it earlier) Undecided

As my posting says, the deadline for responses to the consultation was 31 March 2009. Roll Eyes

Perhaps you thought that it couldn't possibly be the case that one year on, GPs would continue to use rip-off numbers, unabated by any reported "ban".

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« Last Edit: Mar 6^th, 2010 at 11:00pm by Dave »

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CJT-80 Global Moderator Offline Posts: 1,713 Manchester Gender:	Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta Reply #265 - Mar 6^th, 2010 at 11:00pm Oh no.... One word BUGGER! it's late and I am not with it...
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loddon

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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #266 - Mar 7^th, 2010 at 9:31pm

Dear CJT-80,

I heartily recomment that you go to page 1 of this thread and read through all the posts up to today. It will not be a waste of your time because it may give you an insight into this issue and what has been going on. You will then be well briefed in order to participate in any debate we may have about what to do next in order to progress our campaign on towards a properly successful conclusion. Indeed you may have ideas and suggestions which you could put forward and which we will all welcome.

Best wishes, loddon.

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« Last Edit: Mar 7^th, 2010 at 9:32pm by loddon »

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CJT-80

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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #267 - Mar 14^th, 2010 at 7:12pm

Dear Loddon.. et al... I appologise in advance for the length of this posting...

I have spent a good few evenings scrolling through various threads/posts and links.. before comming back and adding my own comments and experiences to this thread..

This website has been a fantastic resource for me ever since I started to first use it... however long ago... But only in the last few months have I looked deeper into it.. including the NHS/Dr's Phone line issues.

A few things have really come to my attention and they are:
Public outcry at use of "premium rate" contact numbers - why should we pay MORE for a service we already pay for in taxes and NI?
Greed of Private Telecoms Firms who deal with NHS/DoH - why is the Government and the Departments allowing these companies to flog their wares to Dr's Surgeries, surely we don't NEED a consultation to work out we are ALL being fleeced! Yet the DoH thought we did....
Our Government treats the NHS and other services like a Business - As has been stated NUMEROUS times on here, the NHS should be provided FREE OF CHARGE at the point of need.. in this case that means, I should NOT be charged any more to call my local Dr's / Hospital then I would to call my friend 5 streets away, or my friend in Manchester. Something NEG seems to go against...

I could go on but I think I have made my points with that part.. and so I move on...
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A link has been provided that shows the NHS can route calls via VOIP NHS VOIP which appears to suggest the NHS can handle it's OWN calls and call queing, so has NO need for companies like NEG and their "free" service...

On the subject of moving this campaign forward and getting it concluded, I would suggest a "campaign site" something perhaps supported by SNT0870 but seperate from it. AS SNT0870 does not focus soley on the NHS, having a campaign here could detract / dilute the message being given. A site I use on a regular basis Think Broadband has a very usefull Latest News section on the front page, something very simillar could be used as part of the campaign as well as a Hall of Fame and Hall of shame.. and a Forum specifically for Updates or comments re the NHS and it's use of 084 numbers...
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I hope my input and suggestions have been helpful, and would like to appologise in advance for it's length and any spelling mistakes (I am dyslexic) ... please feel free to give me any views or comments.

Thanks

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CJT-80

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #268 - Mar 16^th, 2010 at 10:13am

The revisions to the GP contracts will come into effect from 1 April.

If properly applied, these changes should have the effect that some of us wish to see.

I see the key point as being that GP Commissioning teams in Primary Care Trusts understand which numbers cost more than the cost of an equivalent geographic call. They also need to recognise that Talk Talk and other providers allow customers to migrate from 084 to the respective 034 number within the term of their contract for network telephone service.

I am doing all I can to ensure that a ban on use of revenue sharing numbers in the NHS is introduced as widely as is possible. I would urge any members who have the necessary time, energy and commitment to do all they can to assist PCTs in getting this right.

I do however understand that many members of the forum oppose my objective and that many members are content to simply comment on, and condemn, a failure to achieve it. I hope that they feel free to express their views, as we discuss these issues in this forum.

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Doctors' phone line use reviewed - DH consulta
Reply #269 - Mar 19^th, 2010 at 10:42am

A briefing on the current situation is published:

Will the BMA be able to beat the government by enabling GPs to continue using expensive telephone numbers?

This will be very widely circulated as a briefing and commentary.

Members may wish to discuss any aspect of this in response. Please email or PM me with any tactical suggestions that may be best not discussed in this public forum.

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