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GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire) (Read 712,332 times)
SilentCallsVictim
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #510 - Mar 12th, 2013 at 6:19pm
 
See the full fair telecoms campaign response to the NHS Sussex statement -
http://www.fairtelecoms.org.uk/1/post/2013/03/response-to-statement-from-nhs-sus...
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Keith
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #511 - Apr 2nd, 2013 at 11:42am
 
People may be interested in the following debate re Lightwater Surgery in Surrey.

Go to http://wilsonrichard.com 21 January article (but you can get there quickly by using the recent postings links).

There are 46 posts, but the most recent posts by 'Stuart' are very very good. He knows his stuff. This is in contrast to the surgery. For example look at the link in the post made on 26 March.

You might also like to read the article in http://www.windleshamlabour.org.uk by selecting Lightwater and then New Doctors Group in Surrey Heath. Note 2 at the bottom of the page makes very interesting reading. Now go to leftoflightwater.wordpress.com on 7 February.
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loddon
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #512 - Apr 3rd, 2013 at 10:46am
 
Dave wrote on Mar 9th, 2013 at 11:42am:
Each 0844 number carries a premium, soon to be openly declared and referred to as a Service Charge.

I don't understand this statement.   For anyone with a package, landline or mobile, the premium incurred when calling an 084/7 number also costs the "access charge" and the connection charge.   Can you explain please Dave?


~ Edited by Dave: Tags on quote box corrected
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« Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2013 at 11:28am by Dave »  
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Dave
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #513 - Apr 3rd, 2013 at 11:36am
 
loddon wrote on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 10:46am:
Dave wrote on Mar 9th, 2013 at 11:42am:
Each 0844 number carries a premium, soon to be openly declared and referred to as a Service Charge.

I don't understand this statement.   For anyone with a package, landline or mobile, the premium incurred when calling an 084/7 number also costs the "access charge" and the connection charge.   Can you explain please Dave?

I shall give the full context of the sentence, which you quoted on its own:

Dave wrote on Mar 9th, 2013 at 11:42am:
sherbert wrote on Mar 9th, 2013 at 11:31am:
A spokesman for NHS Sussex said: “No practice in Sussex uses a premium rate number. However, 084 numbers can cost more to call than other landlines.

That is correct, 0844 numbers are not Premium Rate Services (PRS). Each 0844 number carries a premium, soon to be openly declared and referred to as a Service Charge.

My first sentence said that 0844 numbers are not Premium Rate Services (PRS), a term defined in statute. However, they do carry a premium to the benefit of the user, just as with PRS numbers. This premium will soon be known as the Service Charge, and it will have to be declared.

Nowhere in my reply did I say that there will be no Access Charge "premium" for anyone with a landline or mobile package.
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« Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2013 at 11:39am by Dave »  
 
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #514 - Apr 3rd, 2013 at 1:41pm
 
loddon wrote on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 10:46am:
Can you explain please …

There are many circumstances under which a premium charge may be incurred when using the telephone, e.g. exceeding a limited bundled allowance, making a Weekday call under the terms of a Weekend only Call Plan. Premiums are also incurred when calling numbers not covered by a Call Plan or bundle (e.g. mobiles from a landline).

That referred to by Dave was the premium that is invariably incurred when calling a 0844 number because of the additional Termination Fee paid on to the benefit of the person called. This is always in place, regardless of other possible premiums imposed by the telephone company. Under the forthcoming Ofcom regulations this will have to be declared, it will be known as the Service Charge.


The premium Access Charge which may be incurred is consequential on there being a Service Charge. Many campaigners stress the fact that the Service Charge will have to be declared in the hope that those who are unable to justify imposing a charge for the call, by their choice of number that includes a Service Charge, will feel compelled to relieve callers of all premiums other than those which may be incurred in calling a geographic rate number. This is the essence of SayNoTo0870. As numbers that include a Service Charge will continue to be permitted, pressure must be applied to discourage their use.

It is for this reason that great emphasis is placed on the Service Charge, which will remain largely unchanged as we move into the "Unbundled Tariff" regime. Simplification, transparency and removal of the special regulation of BT will cause the "Access Charge" to be very different under the new regime to what it is at present. For now, it is simply defined as being the remainder of the total call cost after the Service Charge has been removed. In some cases this makes it negative! We have not yet had any clear indications of what individual telephone companies will be doing with it in future. 


Some argue that the "Access Charge" and the rate for calling geographic numbers should be equalised, so that the "Service Charge" represents the only premium over the cost of calling a geographic number in all cases. The fair telecoms campaign takes the view that those who choose not to call numbers with "Service Charges" should not be compelled to subsidise such calls by paying the same rate to the originating telephone company. Equally, we do not believe that Access Charges should be pegged to "penalty charges" for Out of Plan calls to geographic rate numbers.

We foresee many changes with landline package arrangements in the medium term, most notably the inclusion of unlimited calls to mobiles. We are content to wait to see what the market delivers and will press Ofcom to intervene should any clear unfairness be seen. The issue of what must and what may be included in bundles will be addressed at length in the forthcoming Ofcom consultation on Simplifying Non-Geographic Numbers.

The imperative issue is that the Access Charge be kept simple, so that the greatest possible number of callers will know what it is at the time when they consider making a call on which it will be incurred.


The connection charge (or "call setup fee"), on calls that are otherwise charged by duration,  has an uncertain future. We wait to see if Ofcom will be proceeding with its intention to abolish it. If it remains, it will become part of the "Access Charge", exclusively to the benefit of the call originating telephone company. At present, it could be said to be part of the Service Charge, however with a simpler future in prospect, due to be outlined shortly, it may be best not to go too deep into this at this time.


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loddon
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #515 - Apr 3rd, 2013 at 1:58pm
 
Dave wrote on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 11:36am:
My first sentence said that 0844 numbers are not Premium Rate Services (PRS), a term defined in statute. However, they do carry a premium to the benefit of the user, just as with PRS numbers. This premium will soon be known as the Service Charge, and it will have to be declared.


Dave, you say "This premium will soon be known as the Service Charge, and it will have to be declared" but I feel that some people may misunderstand this assertion and take it that the two are directly equivalent.    My contention is that the "service charge" is only a part of the premium, and usually the smaller part, whereas the "access charge" is a component of the "premium" and can cost as much as 20 times more than the "service charge".   So the cost of the "access charge" is likely to be the much more important part of the total cost of 084/7 numbers depending on exactly what regulations Ofcom are going to propose.

If you were to clarify and say that the "service charge" will be a part of the additional cost, the "premium", incurred when calling an 084/7 number and that the total premium will comprise the "access charge" added to the "service charge" then I will be happy to agree.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #516 - Apr 3rd, 2013 at 2:36pm
 
loddon wrote on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 1:58pm:
… the total premium will comprise the "access charge" added to the "service charge" …


In a case where the "premium" is over a cost of zero, then this is true. The Access Charge plus the Service Charge is the total "unbundled" cost of the call. Whilst the overwhelming majority of calls to geographic numbers incur no call charge, it cannot be said that none do. The word "premium" loses something of its meaning when set against zero, so the context assumed by the suggested statement serves to make it pointless in isolation.

As stated above, we must also take care to distinguish between the present and the future when it comes to Access Charges. Service Charges will not change that much under the new regime, other than being brought out into the open, however Access Charges will undergo something of a revolution.

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loddon
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #517 - Apr 3rd, 2013 at 3:50pm
 
Thank you SCV for agreeing with me.   I am however, puzzled when you say "The word "premium" loses something of its meaning when set against zero .... " -- why?   Huh Undecided

My dictionary says that premium means "a sum added to ordinary charges" and "above the usual price".   If the usual price is zero (because our geo calls have been prepaid within our package) are not the premium priced 084/7 calls even more prominent and the "premium" even more noticeable?
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #518 - Apr 3rd, 2013 at 5:01pm
 
The point is that for the minority who pay for geographic rate calls, where the "ordinary charge" or "usual price" is not zero, the suggested statement is untrue.

In general terms, a charge or price of zero would be seen as an exceptional case.

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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #519 - Apr 3rd, 2013 at 5:48pm
 
loddon wrote on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 1:58pm:
Dave wrote on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 11:36am:
My first sentence said that 0844 numbers are not Premium Rate Services (PRS), a term defined in statute. However, they do carry a premium to the benefit of the user, just as with PRS numbers. This premium will soon be known as the Service Charge, and it will have to be declared.

Dave, you say "This premium will soon be known as the Service Charge, and it will have to be declared" but I feel that some people may misunderstand this assertion and take it that the two are directly equivalent.    My contention is that the "service charge" is only a part of the premium, and usually the smaller part, whereas the "access charge" is a component of the "premium" and can cost as much as 20 times more than the "service charge".   So the cost of the "access charge" is likely to be the much more important part of the total cost of 084/7 numbers depending on exactly what regulations Ofcom are going to propose.

If you were to clarify and say that the "service charge" will be a part of the additional cost, the "premium", incurred when calling an 084/7 number and that the total premium will comprise the "access charge" added to the "service charge" then I will be happy to agree.

You are referring to the "premium" (above that of a geographic call), which generally applies to the retail call price. Its magnitude on any one call is dependent on the originating operator.

I am referring to the premium attached to the termination payment which applies constantly, irrespective of retail call price. It is imperative that this be set apart (unbundled) from the Access Charge. Whether the Access Charge represents a "premium" depends on any individual caller's service offering.

My statement should not be taken out of context. I am asserting that there is a "premium" carried with 084 numbers (to the benefit of number users), albeit lower than with PRS. The fact that a 084 service is not a "Premium Rate Service" does not mean that there is no "premium" passed. My wording in no way precludes the presence of a second "premium", which is the Access Charge.
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #520 - Apr 4th, 2013 at 11:56am
 
Another fantastic post by Stuart (do you post here Stuart) on the  http://wilsonrichard.com site re the Lightwater Surgery in Surrey.

Also remiss of me to not congratulate Richard Wilson on his campaign.
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loddon
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #521 - Apr 6th, 2013 at 7:08am
 
Dave wrote on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 5:48pm:
You are referring to the "premium" (above that of a geographic call), which generally applies to the retail call price.


Yes, and that is what most people will understand by the term "premium".   For most people, and most are using a package, that premium is the total cost of the 084/7 call because their normal marginal cost is zero because their geo calls are prepaid.

Dave wrote on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 5:48pm:
  I am referring to the premium attached to the termination payment  ...  .
  Yes, and most people will not have a clue what you are talking about. 

I think this discussion hinges on the point that terms need to be defined carefully and we should not assume that readers are aware of hidden items like termination charges.

P.S.  I cannot seem to get these goddam "quotes" to work.   Embarrassed


~ Edited by Dave: Tags on quote boxes corrected
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« Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2013 at 9:41am by Dave »  
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loddon
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #522 - Apr 6th, 2013 at 7:15am
 
Keith wrote on Apr 4th, 2013 at 11:56am:
Another fantastic post by Stuart (do you post here Stuart) on the  http://wilsonrichard.com site re the Lightwater Surgery in Surrey.


Is this post appropriate??   I have looked at this link and can find only a passing reference to a GPs 0844 number, so what is so "fantastic" about it?   It seems to me you are trying to push the electioneering stance of a political candidate rather than discuss topics relevant to this Forum.
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« Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2013 at 7:16am by loddon »  
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loddon
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #523 - Apr 6th, 2013 at 7:23am
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 5:01pm:
The point is that for the minority who pay for geographic rate calls, where the "ordinary charge" or "usual price" is not zero, the suggested statement is untrue.


And for the vast majority the "usual price" IS zero.
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #524 - Apr 6th, 2013 at 10:14am
 
Lodden,

If you look at my history on this site you would see I would never do what you are suggesting. I have posted since 2005 and have never made a political point in any post.

I think you must have missed the details. There is a long article followed by 49 posts. the final ones by Stuart are fantastic. He knows his stuff and has gone into comprehensive detail.

Stuart who has made the posts I refer to also makes no political points either.

FYI I am a member of a political party and it is NOT the one promoted by this site, so I would hardly be pushing it for electioneering purposes. I would be linking to it whether it be Con/Lab/LD or whatever because of 0844 issue being discussed and for no other reason.

Go to  http://wilsonrichard.com and go down to latest comments on the right and click on any of the 0844 references to see the comments to the 21 January article. I think you must have missed them.
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