SAYNOTO0870.COM - Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?

Ian01

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Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Mar 17^th, 2015 at 10:51am

Where can I find information about the changes to non-geographic call prices that come into effect on 1 July 2015?

Ofcom's news release: http://media.ofcom.org.uk/news/2014/uk-calling/
Ofcom's main website: http://www.ukcalling.info/
Ofcom's explanatory video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzeU-ON9gKM

Background: http://www.fairtelecoms.org.uk/uk-calling.html
http://www.fairtelecoms.org.uk/uk-calling-clear-call-rates.html

Individual providers have published various information:
http://mobile.asda.com/pages/charges#uk-calling
http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/51727/~/how-will-calls-to-08,-09-...
http://www.kc.co.uk/products/phone/uk-calling/
http://www.kcbusiness.co.uk/content/newsletter-articles/view/changes-to-charges-...
http://www.o2.co.uk/help/everything-else/changes-to-non-geographical-numbers
http://community.plus.net/blog/2015/03/11/call-charges-to-service-numbers-are-ch...
http://www.phoneshopbysainsburys.co.uk/downloads/UK-calling-FAQs.pdf
http://www.sky.com/shop/terms-conditions/talk/code-of-practice/tariff-guide/
http://www.tescomobile.com/changes-to-call-charges

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« Last Edit: Mar 17^th, 2015 at 11:01am by Ian01 »

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kasg Senior Member Offline Posts: 320 West Sussex Gender:	Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015? Reply #1 - Mar 17^th, 2015 at 2:43pm Haven't you answered your own question by posting all those links? The BT link explicitly says "We will be communicating our access charges to you on 1 July 2015 via this website" so don't expect any early announcements.
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kasg Senior Member Offline Posts: 320 West Sussex Gender:	Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015? Reply #2 - Mar 17^th, 2015 at 3:39pm Right, I now understand that you weren't asking the question but posing the question then answering it.
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derrick

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #3 - Mar 18^th, 2015 at 9:54am

What about the connection charge?

I have looked at a couple of the links and can only find comments re the Access and Service charges, no mention of connection fee, i.e a quote from Sky's page: -

"

From 1 July 2015, the cost of calling any of these numbers will be split into two parts:

The Access charge: This is what we charge you, per minute, for connecting the call. You can find out your access charge by looking at your Sky bill or looking within your Sky Talk tariff guide.

The Service charge: This is the rest of the call charge. The organisation you are calling decides the service charge, and must communicate it. For example, if the service charge was 20p per minute, the organisation you are calling might say: “Calls cost 20p per minute, plus your phone company’s access charge.”

By adding together the access charge and the service charge, you will know exactly what the call will cost you.

"

When they say "By adding together the access charge and the service charge, you will know exactly what the call will cost you." and an example of "if the service charge was 20p per minute, the organisation you are calling might say: “Calls cost 20p per minute, plus your phone company’s access charge.”, in that example your phone company charge 20ppm that equates to 40ppm, where is the connection fee that could typically be 15p ?

.

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SilentCallsVictim

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aka NHS.Patient, DH_fairtelecoms

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #4 - Mar 18^th, 2015 at 10:10am

derrick wrote on Mar 18^th, 2015 at 9:54am:

What about the connection charge?

Under the terms of "Clear Call Rates for Anyone" the Access Charge can only be a pence per minute rate
- NO CALL SET-UP FEE OR CALL CONNECTION CHARGE - a minimum charging duration (e.g. 1 minute) is permitted.

The "Access Charge" only applies on calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers. We wait to see if Ofcom will find a way of banning call set-up fees (connection charges) on other calls.

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nicholas43

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #5 - Apr 6^th, 2015 at 9:48pm

Currently, many landline providers include calls to 0845 and 0870 in "unlimited" £x-a-month bundles. Does it follow that there is good commercial justification for setting the universal access charge at 0p per minute?
Alternatively, will a provider be allowed to set the access charge at (say) 15p a minute for only out-of-bundle calls from a landline, while including access charges within the monthly "unlimited" bundle price?
Would readers care to speculate
a. which provider will be the first to declare their access charge, and their stance on bundles?
b. how much the first declared access charge will be?
c. whether BT mean what they say, that they're not declaring theirs till 1 July 2015?
d. whether a "service" charge of, say, 20p a minute means that the "service" provider's telco gets 20p a minute, or 20p less a handling charge of xp a minute?

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« Last Edit: Apr 6^th, 2015 at 10:05pm by nicholas43 »

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Ian01

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #6 - Apr 6^th, 2015 at 10:14pm

nicholas43 wrote on Apr 6^th, 2015 at 9:48pm:

Currently, many landline providers include calls to 0845 and 0870 in "unlimited" £x-a-month bundles. Does it follow that there is good commercial justification for setting the universal access charge at 0p per minute?
Alternatively, will a provider be allowed to set the access charge at (say) 15p a minute for only out-of-bundle calls from a landline, while including access charges within the monthly "unlimited" bundle price?
Would readers care to speculate
a. which provider will be the first to declare their access charge, and their stance on bundles?
b. how much the first declared access charge will be?
c. whether BT mean what they say, that they're not declaring theirs till 1 July 2015?
d. whether a "service" charge of, say, 20p a minute means that the "service" provider's telco gets 20p a minute, or 20p less a handling charge of xp a minute?

Callers reasonably expect to pay their telephone provider for calls that they make. The Access Charge should NOT be zero.

BT has been regulated by Ofcom to effectively have a zero Access Charge on calls to 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers since 1996. That regulation has led to much of the confusion that has been seen with non-geo call costs. The NTS Retail Condition is being scrapped on 1 July 2015.

Calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers should NOT be inclusive. Only those callers who call those numbers should pay the Service Charge. Other callers should not be contributing to those costs.

Ofcom's intention is that 0845 is treated the same as 0843 and 0844 and that 0870 is treated the same as 0871 and 0872. At the consultation stage the project was called 'simplifying non-geographic numbers' and the current publicity campaign goes under the banner 'clear call rates for everyone'.

Despite the expectation that no-one would declare until well into May, or later,
a. Sky was first to declare their Access Charge.
b. 9.5p per minute.
c. time will tell.
d. TCP gets Service Charge less VAT. The non-geographic call handling costs are normally a couple of pence per minute for calls forwarded to a landline and a bit more for calls forwarded to a mobile. The remainder is usually paid out as revenue share or used to discount the service provider's bill for other telecoms services supplied.

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« Last Edit: Apr 6^th, 2015 at 10:47pm by Ian01 »

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nicholas43

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #7 - Apr 7^th, 2015 at 11:44am

Thanks for the tip about Sky. As far as I can see, Sky have nothing about this on their website. But according to this thread on the Sky user forum
http://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Talk-line-rental/0845-numbers-new-charges/td-p/23136...
Sky has emailed their customers declaring 9.5p/min for non-inclusive calls. And users are guessing that the access charge will be included in Sky's anytime package. If so, the access charge will presumably be included for calls to all "service" numbers, not just 0845 and 0870.
Incidentally, all telcos seem to have concluded that they make more profit from a predictable monthly income from an "unlimited" package, than from pay-per-call.

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« Last Edit: Apr 7^th, 2015 at 11:45am by nicholas43 »

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Ian01

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #8 - Apr 7^th, 2015 at 12:07pm

Where the Service Charge remains chargeable, there is no provision for having an allowance of zero-rated Access Charge minutes followed by Xp per minute Access Charge for calls made thereafter.

Where the Service Charge remains chargeable, there must be a single rate set for the Access Charge for all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers. I cannot see any provider setting a zero Access Charge for all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

Where the Service Charge is made inclusive, the Access Charge must be set to zero. Ofcom originally said that where inclusive calls are offered, they would have to cover all 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers. More recently the rules were changed such that individual number ranges could be made inclusive. Given that the Service Charge for 084 numbers can be up to 7p per minute and for 087 numbers can be up to 13p per minute, there seems to be no valid reason why the Service Charge for whole number ranges would be made inclusive.

In comparison, termination rates for ordinary calls are very much less: 0.21p per minute for 01 and 02 numbers, 0.56p per minute for 03 numbers and (from 1 May 2015) 0.68p per minute for 071-075 and 077-079 numbers.

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« Last Edit: Apr 7^th, 2015 at 1:48pm by Ian01 »

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nicholas43

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #9 - Apr 7^th, 2015 at 9:03pm

In Ofcom's "Final statement"
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/simplifying-non-geo-no/final-stat...
they said
Quote:

we are setting rules about the structure of the access and service charges so that consumers can more readily understand and, where appropriate, remember them. These include:

one access charge per tariff package, for calls to all unbundled non-geographic number ranges, though the access charge may be included in a bundle of inclusive minutes for some or all non-geographic numbers [my emphases];
the access charge to be set as a simple 'pence per minute' rate;

On the face of it, therefore, Sky could include unlimited, or a defined total number of minutes per month, within each of their monthly bundles, to some "service" numbers, for example 0843, 0844, and 0845. It's not clear to me whether Sky can (as now? - I haven't checked) say "but only for the first x minutes of each call".

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« Last Edit: Apr 7^th, 2015 at 9:20pm by nicholas43 »

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Ian01 Supreme Member Offline Posts: 767	Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015? Reply #10 - Apr 8^th, 2015 at 3:45pm There's further details in the Ofcom final statement, possibly somewhere around section 3.58 (if I remember right). The actual rules that providers have to follow are in the amended version of Ofcom's General Condition 17.
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Ian01 Supreme Member Offline Posts: 767	Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015? Reply #11 - Apr 8^th, 2015 at 5:17pm Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, EE now has a page (with multiple typos and some omissions) about the changes: http://ee.co.uk/help/add-ons-benefits-and-plans/price-plans-and-costs/ee-price-p...
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kasg Senior Member Offline Posts: 320 West Sussex Gender:	Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015? Reply #12 - Apr 8^th, 2015 at 6:39pm Ian01 wrote on Apr 8^th, 2015 at 5:17pm: Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, EE now has a page (with multiple typos and some omissions) e.g. "0843, 08434, 08435" which obviously should read "0843, 0844, 0845" and it omits 0870.
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Ian01

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Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015?
Reply #13 - Apr 10^th, 2015 at 8:24am

Not only that, but the claim that these numbers are... Quote:

... typically used for banks, utility companies, customer helplines, government departments ...

... nowadays mischaracterises their intended use.

Most banks have moved from 0845 to 0345 numbers ahead of impending FCA regulation. Utility companies and customer helplines have mainly moved to 03 numbers. This is as a result of the Consumer Contracts Regulations which came into force in June 2014. Government departments have moved from 0845 to either 0300 or 0345 numbers as a result of the Cabinet Office guidance published in December 2013.

084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers are now mainly used for chatlines, recorded information lines, subscription-free conference calling services, instant-access international dial-through services, various automated and interactive services such as voting on a TV show, adult entertainment services, directory enquiries, etc.

There are still a few sales lines using these numbers, but the requirement to declare the Service Charge should see a reduction in this use.

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« Last Edit: Apr 11^th, 2015 at 6:13pm by Ian01 »

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Ian01 Supreme Member Offline Posts: 767	Re: Where can I find information about 1 July 2015? Reply #14 - Apr 17^th, 2015 at 7:09am Adding to the list in the first post of this thread, Virgin Media has had a page about the changes online for a while: http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/News/UK-Calling-a-message-from-Ofcom/td-p/27...
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