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IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/2/08 (Read 133,134 times)
dave1463
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IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/2/08
Oct 26th, 2007 at 9:35pm
 
Ofcom are delaying implementing the proposed changes in 0870 beyond 1/2/08. The reason for this is because Ofcom are worried about the knock on effects of applying a pre call announcement to calls to  0870 numbers. It appears that the pre call announcements applied to 070 numbers have caused safety of life issues with critical (emergency type) services that use 070 numbers. Ofcom have decided to delay the current 0870 policy implementation and undertake an assessment.

This may mean that 0870 call charges remain unchanged as it is difficult to distinguish between tariffs without a pre call announcement notifying the caller of the call charge.

Customers who wish to change the tariff that their caller pays can convert to 0370, alternatively, take on one of the new 030 or 033 numbers. The best deal that I can find is with Windsor Telecom, who offer an 030 (not for profit organisations only) or 033 (any organisation) numbers for just £24.99 per month, which includes no less than 10,000 free minutes. Inbound calls thereafter are charged at 0.5p per minute ex VAT. If anyone is interested their website address is http://www.windsor-telecom.co.uk/03-numbers.php

Edited:
dave1463 is in fact David Bennett, Sales Director at Windsor Telecom.
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« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2007 at 7:23am by Dave »  
 
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Dave
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Re: IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/
Reply #1 - Oct 27th, 2007 at 10:20am
 
Where has this information come from?
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« Last Edit: Oct 27th, 2007 at 10:20am by Dave »  
 
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Keith
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Re: IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/
Reply #2 - Oct 27th, 2007 at 10:25am
 
This surely begs the question - Why are organisations who are supply life critical emergency services using 07 or 0870 numbers in the first place. They should be using an 0800 AND Geo Number surely.
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Heinz
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Re: IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/
Reply #3 - Oct 27th, 2007 at 11:10am
 
Dave wrote on Oct 27th, 2007 at 10:20am:
Where has this information come from?

Call me old-fashioned but I note it's a first-time poster coming up with information who, although apparently being unable to provide a link to the source, is able add a link to a company selling 03 numbers.

IMHO, the likelihood of it being a clever spam is high.
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« Last Edit: Oct 27th, 2007 at 11:11am by Heinz »  

After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015
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idb
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Re: IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/
Reply #4 - Oct 27th, 2007 at 11:59am
 
dave1463 wrote on Oct 26th, 2007 at 9:35pm:
Ofcom are delaying implementing the proposed changes in 0870 beyond 1/2/08. The reason for this is because Ofcom are worried about the knock on effects of applying a pre call announcement to calls to  0870 numbers. It appears that the pre call announcements applied to 070 numbers have caused safety of life issues with critical (emergency type) services that use 070 numbers. Ofcom have decided to delay the current 0870 policy implementation and undertake an assessment.

This may mean that 0870 call charges remain unchanged as it is difficult to distinguish between tariffs without a pre call announcement notifying the caller of the call charge.

Customers who wish to change the tariff that their caller pays can convert to 0370, alternatively, take on one of the new 030 or 033 numbers. The best deal that I can find is with Windsor Telecom, who offer an 030 (not for profit organisations only) or 033 (any organisation) numbers for just £24.99 per month, which includes no less than 10,000 free minutes. Inbound calls thereafter are charged at 0.5p per minute ex VAT. If anyone is interested their website address is http://www.windsor-telecom.co.uk/03-numbers.php
Windsor Telecom should be avoided. A major player in the NGN scam with a seemingly cosy relationship with the regulators and public bodies, I suspect its sales tactics are not dissimilar to those of NEG, ie based on lies and deciet. Just look at WT's responses to various Ofcom consultations and you'll see just how odious this organization is!
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As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.
 
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Dave
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Re: IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/
Reply #5 - Oct 27th, 2007 at 1:20pm
 
Heinz wrote on Oct 27th, 2007 at 11:10am:
Call me old-fashioned but I note it's a first-time poster coming up with information who, although apparently being unable to provide a link to the source, is able add a link to a company selling 03 numbers.

IMHO, the likelihood of it being a clever spam is high.

I did think that. I have since discovered dave1463 is infact David Bennett, Sales Director at Windsor Telecom. See here.


idb wrote on Oct 27th, 2007 at 11:59am:
Windsor Telecom should be avoided. A major player in the NGN scam with a seemingly cosy relationship with the regulators and public bodies, I suspect its sales tactics are not dissimilar to those of NEG, ie based on lies and deciet. Just look at WT's responses to various Ofcom consultations and you'll see just how odious this organization is!

Indeed, to this day Windsor Telecom persists with referring to 0844 and 0845 as being "local rate".

A search of Windsor Telecom's website reveals:

Quote:
0845 Numbers – Cost of Calling

0845 Numbers have a long history as non geographic numbers. They are without doubt the UK’s most popular memorable numbers and have a high public awareness as ‘local rate numbers’, meaning the cost of calling them is approximately the BT local rate.

Source


A quote from a letter from Neil Sherring, CEO and Marketing Director at Windsor Telecom, to Clive Hillier and Gareth Davies of Ofcom in December 2005:

Quote:
Advertising & Marketing

Since WT was allocated it’s range of numbers by Ofcom, they have always been promoted and sold in good faith as local rate (0845 numbers) and national rate (0870 numbers) respectively. At the point of every sale, our customers are also advised to advertise their numbers as being ‘local’ and/or ‘national’ rate.

To no longer allow these descriptions because they are deemed ‘misleading’ by the ASA seems too much of an unnecessary upheaval. As well as the costly re-printing of all promotional material to eliminate these descriptions, associations will have already been made in the minds of consumers with 0845 numbers being ‘local rate’ and 0870 numbers being ‘national rate’. It will therefore be extremely difficult to create a ‘disassociation’. WT believe that the two descriptions should remain but in order to clarify further, capped ppm charges should feature next to the descriptions.

Full letter available here.


Remember this is from December 2005. It was Windsor's choice to use the "local rate"/"national rate" descriptions knowing full well that most telephone users don't pay such rates to call them. Telcos like Windsor know that the only way they can sell these numbers to service providers is to convince them that they are doing their customers a favour. What better a term than "local rate" which keeps alive the myth that there really is a difference between local and national calls.


Some 'promotional' material for Windsor's 0844 numbers:

http://www.windsor-telecom.co.uk/pdf/new/0844.pdf

In large type at the top of each page it says:
Quote:
0844 Local Numbers
Lower call costs for your national callers


Remember, ASA upheld a complaint against Windsor for describing 0845 as "local rate" in January 2006. See here.....
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« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2007 at 7:28am by Dave »  
 
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Barbara
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Re: IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/
Reply #6 - Oct 29th, 2007 at 9:21am
 
Yes, but is the substance of the first post in this thread true?   I am in the middle of disputes with at least two organisations, a large part of the basis of these being the change in the status of 0870 nos from Feb 2008 (and I expect many other forum members are in similar situations).  Hence, forum users need to know the truth before we make idiots of ourselves and give a moral victory to those we are fighting.   I am waiting for a response from Clive Hillier at OFCOM regarding the (mis)use of outdated terms which might help answer this but I don't know when I will receive this so, in the meantime, maybe one of the most knowledgeable forum members can investigate this & provide some sort of answer?  While waiting, I will refrain from making any further complaints which involve the future charges/status of 0870 nos.
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Barbara
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Re: IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/
Reply #7 - Oct 29th, 2007 at 7:02pm
 
Please could anyone reading this please also read my latest post under National Trust to see why I need this info urgently.   Thanks.
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Re: IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/
Reply #8 - Oct 29th, 2007 at 8:58pm
 
Barbara wrote on Oct 29th, 2007 at 9:21am:
Yes, but is the substance of the first post in this thread true?   I am in the middle of disputes with at least two organisations, a large part of the basis of these being the change in the status of 0870 nos from Feb 2008 (and I expect many other forum members are in similar situations).  Hence, forum users need to know the truth before we make idiots of ourselves and give a moral victory to those we are fighting.   I am waiting for a response from Clive Hillier at OFCOM regarding the (mis)use of outdated terms which might help answer this but I don't know when I will receive this so, in the meantime, maybe one of the most knowledgeable forum members can investigate this & provide some sort of answer?  While waiting, I will refrain from making any further complaints which involve the future charges/status of 0870 nos.
I sugest you also ask, in a seperate email, Clive Hillier whether Ofcom are postponing (or even thinking about it) the changes to 0870 and if so, why?

Bear in mind that everyone has had a year (I believe) to get themselves prepared for this change.
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Re: IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/
Reply #9 - Oct 29th, 2007 at 10:36pm
 
Barbara wrote on Oct 29th, 2007 at 9:21am:
Yes, but is the substance of the first post in this thread true?  
I have been unable to find any evidence that the assertion that there will be a delay to the 0870 policy change is factually correct, however given the inaction and dithering by the regulator, and the general clandestine process of NTS regulation which bypasses the consumer, I guess that it is possible a delay will be announced.

Whilst many 0870 users have shifted to 0844, some of the big players - Sky, BBC - have so far retained their 0870 offerings. Perhaps they are hedging their bets in case there is further delay to implementing the 0870 policy change.

Perhaps Windsor Telecom does indeed have some insight into forthcoming changes!
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Heinz
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Re: IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/
Reply #10 - Nov 1st, 2007 at 7:44pm
 
Heinz wrote on Oct 27th, 2007 at 11:10am:
Dave wrote on Oct 27th, 2007 at 10:20am:
Where has this information come from?

Call me old-fashioned but I note it's a first-time poster coming up with information who, although apparently being unable to provide a link to the source, is able add a link to a company selling 03 numbers.

IMHO, the likelihood of it being a clever spam is high.

I apologise.  Clearly, the OP had insider information (although the manner of presentation was clearly self-serving).

http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1193931593
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« Last Edit: Nov 1st, 2007 at 7:44pm by Heinz »  

After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015
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moneysavin
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Re: IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/
Reply #11 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 1:33am
 
Some more info on this delay !!!!


"Ofcom has postponed long-scheduled new rules designed to clamp down on the non-geographic number rip-off, after it realised that its rules could scupper burglar alarms and monitoring systems for vulnerable people.

Regulators have kept the news quiet. There's no announcement on its website. Ofcom told industry at a call routing focus group last week, according to operator Numberstore.

Ofcom told the Reg the hold-up has been prompted by a submission from a trade body called the UK Competitive Telecommunications Association (UKCTA). Its document, dated January 7 2005 (pdf, pages 12 and 13), warns on technical issues caused by plans for free pre-announcements on expensive calls.

An Ofcom spokeswoman said regulators had only become aware of the issue relating to alarm systems in the last few weeks.

When it drew up the new regulations more than 18 months ago, Ofcom decided to allow firms to opt out of providing standard rate national numbers - if they put out a free warning that the call will cost extra before it is answered. The problem is that many alarms automatically dial out to 0870 numbers when they are tripped. Some will time out if the call is not answered quickly, which could mean an emergency goes unreported.

The spokeswoman said: "Ofcom is investigating how to deal with the very specific case of alarm and safety services running on 0870. Ofcom is committed to introducing rules to make it clear to consumers what they will pay when calling 0870"


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/01/ofcom_0870_snag/
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« Last Edit: Nov 2nd, 2007 at 1:35am by moneysavin »  
 
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Re: IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/
Reply #12 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 4:11am
 
If the reason for a suspension of the long overdue demise of the 0870 scandal is as suggested in the article referred to above, then it makes no sense in the context of my understanding of the situation ....


The UKCTA was aware in January 2005 that certain equipment could not be used to make calls that featured pre-announcements. The implications of Ofcom's decision were therefore clear to its members from the day it was announced.

If its members (the OCPs who compete with BT) made the decision to take advantage of the special opt-out to the general tariff requirement for 0870 numbers, this would prevent some customers from making some calls to 0870 numbers. They knew this, as it was they who made that very point to Ofcom!

Having made a decision to take this exceptional action and implement use of cost pre-announcements, despite having expressed serious concerns about their feasibility, it is they who must accept responsibility for the consequences, not Ofcom.


Have they provided warnings to their customers announcing that they will be deviating from the preferred simple Ofcom suggestion for transparent pricing and will therefore be introducing pre-announcements from 1 February 2008?

Have these warnings been provided with a sufficient period of notice so that customers who make 0870 calls using equipment that cannot deal with pre-announcments could make alternative arrangements?



Ofcom made its intentions very clear. It had decided to SAY "NO" TO 0870.

0871, with appropriate "premium rate" regulation, was available for those who wished to benefit from the terms currently associated with 0870. 0870 would return to its original charging basis (which was still dishonestly being claimed by many) as no more than the cost of a call to any UK geographic number. With the 08xx ranges still in something of a mess, a degree of clarity and transparency would be provided by the entire 03xx range being exclusively for non-geographic numbers charged on the same basis as geographic numbers.

The option of pre-announcements was not generally seen as desireable from any side. It seems that Ofcom was perhaps reluctant (or unable) to compel either a mass number change or a price reduction. If so, a pre-announcement offered the only secure way to ensure transparency by those who wished to deviate from the plan by retaining the present charging basis for calls to 0870. Given the suggestions of technical difficulties and cost associated with meeting the explicit pre-announcement requirements imposed by Ofcom, it may have been hoped and expected that few would take this option.

Ofcom was not quite saying "NO", more like "PROBABLY NOT, BUT MAYBE IF YOU REALLY WANT TO".


The reaction to this apparent sudden revelation about alarm systems seems like a great victory for some clever ****er who saw how the Met Police had been caught on a Health and Safety issue and decided to try a similar approach with Ofcom.

It is of interest to note that Ofcom now has more time in which to resolve the current competition case that may be more relevant to this decision than anything to do with alarms - http://www.ofcom.org.uk/bulletins/comp_bull_index/comp_bull_ocases/open_all/cw_9...
(the detail of this is way above my head so I could not offer any serious comment about how relevant it could be.)


So Ofcom is now saying "WELL OK THEN", with no conditions, for the time being. We cannot call this a delay until Ofcom provides a new date and confirms that it will not be making any revisions to the regulations. It has made no definitive statement about what is happening, it has simply advised, through an indirect source, that what was to happen will not now go ahead.

The least we can ask Ofcom for in the meantime is some serious help in promoting and encouraging public sector migration to 03. If this is not forthcoming, we may be forced to conclude that it has now lost all its resolve and is ready to say "YES" to any smooth-talking telco representative.

David
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DonQuixote
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Re: IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/
Reply #13 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 11:17am
 
The rumour is that it seems Ofcom didn't think the whole thing through.  Shocked

I heard, Ofcom was warned in early 2005 by both UKCTA and BT not to use pre-call announcements, as they wouldn't work.
It was even warned about faxes failing for 070, but swept it aside in order to keep going  Angry

Then in September, some old lady pressed her emergency call pendant (which had a permanent 070 number programmed into it)
and it didn't work. Fortunately (for Ofcom) she didn't die. BT has sent out a warning about this.

Apparently the bombshell was dropped in the NTS Focus group only last Thursday, when Ofcom announced it was reconsulting on 0870 as a result of this incident . This left BT and the UKCTA members in a mess as they have already gone to huge expense to advertise the change. Some are already signing up direct debits to pay for receiving calls.
See BT for the full information, they look like they're in a tail spin.  Cry
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« Last Edit: Nov 2nd, 2007 at 11:21am by DonQuixote »  
 
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Re: IMPORTANT: Ofcom delays 0870 changes beyond 1/
Reply #14 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 11:27am
 
Keith wrote on Oct 27th, 2007 at 10:25am:
This surely begs the question - Why are organisations who are supply life critical emergency services using 07 or 0870 numbers in the first place. They should be using an 0800 AND Geo Number surely.

Apparently its because they are permanent. So if the geographic number is changed they just switch the 0870 or 070 number to point to the new exchange or office number. It was a good idea until Ofcom planned to accidentally break it!  Roll Eyes

They hardly ever make calls (hopefully none), so call cost isn't a problem, but the number being permanent, means that you do not have to rush all over the UK and reprogram over 1 million alarm systems.  Cool
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