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NHS premium & national rate phone lines ban (Read 192,045 times)
juby
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #135 - Apr 6th, 2005 at 9:19pm
 
Yes OK thanks, and I did miss the train, had a few jars on the way home.

Just trying to inject a bit of humour into the procedings.

My point was that Leicester TSO has no jurisdiction whatsoever against the department of health (lower case to show my respect) they are powerless.

But you are right in that the only means of redress is the Ombudsman (small elf like creature found in Danish folklore).

juby
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #136 - Apr 6th, 2005 at 9:50pm
 
Quote:
Yes OK thanks, and I did miss the train, had a few jars on the way home.

My point was that Leicester TSO has no jurisdiction whatsoever against the department of health (lower case to show my respect) they are powerless.

But you are right in that the only means of redress is the Ombudsman (small elf like creature found in Danish folklore).


Juby,

I knew that trains would figure somewhere in the proceedings if it was you.  Do you own a car by the way? Cheesy

You are right right that for a government department or local council Trading Standards have no jurisdiction so we instead have to rely on the latest advice from the Central Office of Information.  But equally for commercial companies the COI have no jurisdiction so we must rely on the view of Trading Standards.

But really it helps to point out the view of both bodies as this helps creates the overall impression that the use of these numbers is discredited.

If by some chance the Conservatives win the next election we must immediately try and get across the view that 084x and 087x was another New Labour stealth tax and that thus the free market thing is to abolish these numbers and return to honest price competition on geographic numbers where the customer is genuinely in charge of the price of the call.
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bill
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #137 - Apr 8th, 2005 at 9:57am
 
Interesting (but not particularly helpful) reply to one of my e-mailed queries to the NAO received this morning:
Quote:
Dear Mr Smith

Thank you for your e-mail message of 2 March 2005 to Sir John Bourn, the Comptroller and Auditor General, on the use of 0844 telephone numbers. As the Director responsible for value for money examinations of Ofcom, the regulator of communications, I am replying on Sir John's behalf. I have consulted my colleagues dealing with health matters, who have spoken with the Department of Health.

0844 numbers were introduced in January 2000 by the Office of Telecommunications (Oftel), Ofcom's predecessor, to help provide users with a clearer idea of what calls to these special services will cost. To make proper choices between alternative telephony services, and between telephony and other methods of communication, consumers need to be well informed about costs. 0844 numbers help in this regard in that calls to these numbers are capped at 5 pence per minute.  Unfortunately, however, one of the key findings from our July 2003 report on Oftel was the lack of consumer awareness about telephone tariffs.   

Oftel was aware of the public's concern about the potential adverse affects on consumers from the increasing use of non-geographical numbers like 0870 and 0844, and began a major review of the use such numbers. Ofcom has been progressing this matter and its latest public consultation closed on 7 January 2005. It expects to make a further statement in the second quarter of 2005. Another important development took place in January 2005 when COI Communications, the Government agency that provides advice to the public sector on matters related to communications, issued further guidance to Government contact centres on the use of non-geographic telephone numbers. In particular, this guidance stresses that 0870 numbers are not recommended as these have become expensive to the caller relative to a geographic call, which can act as a barrier to communicating information.

About 300 (3 per cent) of the 9,000 or so NHS surgeries in England have been using revenue sharing numbers, mostly 0870. The Department of Health has allowed NHS surgeries to use such numbers so that they can recover their expenditure in respect of telecommunications equipment, notably rental and service costs. This reflects its policy that, except for emergencies, the public should use their own resources to access the NHS. Having become aware that 0870 numbers were likely to provide individual NHS surgeries with a level of revenue in excess of costs, the Department sought to make changes that should result in a closer alignment. But the Department is mindful of the wider developments that are taking place in respect of revenue sharing numbers, and intends to revisit their use by NHS surgeries once Ofcom's work has been concluded later in 2005.

My colleagues responsible for health issues are keeping this area under review. My own team has been keeping the general issue of non-geographic numbers under examination and will continue to monitor Ofcom's initiative as part of our ongoing review of developments in the telecommunications market.   

Thank you again for raised this matter with us.

Ed Humpherson
Director, Regulation Value for Money
Ed.Humpherson@nao.gsi.gov.uk
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dorf
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #138 - Apr 8th, 2005 at 11:12am
 
Typical towing of the party line I feel. They attempt to claim that there is nothing wrong with the abuse of NGNs, as if "revenue-sharing" on non-09 NGNs is quite above board and OK.

The reality of course is that its continuance is not only a contravention of the National Numbering Plan, but also is a gambit to continue to avoid the ban on queueing with revenue generating numbers!
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #139 - Apr 8th, 2005 at 2:47pm
 
What about 0844 costing 13p per minute from a payphone (that's £2.05 for a quite plausible 15 minite call including queuing time) compared to only 3p per minute from home in the day.  Or 45p for 15 minutes.  And what about the fact that BT Option 3 callers could make the call free if the number was geographic.

Also what about 0844 being widely barred from overseas because its main intended use was in domestic PAYG dialup ISPs and not for critical voiced based health calls to one's doctor.

Also what about far higher call costs to 0844 from PAYG mobile phones.

You should write back making all these points and also pointing out that the use of these numbers amounts to regressive taxation, impacting most heavily on the poorest members of the community.
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« Last Edit: Apr 8th, 2005 at 2:47pm by N/A »  
 
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kk
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #140 - Apr 8th, 2005 at 4:32pm
 
Hi dorf and NGMan
Remember to send a copy of your excellent comments to Ed.Humpherson@nao.gsi.gov.uk  et al.
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KK
 
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dorf
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #141 - Apr 8th, 2005 at 5:35pm
 
Yes NGM,

This is the greatest injustice of this whole debacle; it is the poorest who are hit hardest by this scam, and often as demonstrated by the statistics because they are poor they become ill more often .........Catch 22.
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« Last Edit: Apr 8th, 2005 at 5:35pm by dorf »  

Ofcom are completely ineffectual
 
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TonyB
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #142 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 10:39am
 
A slightly different situation has just arisen as my local surgery in Pocklington has issued a new number to dial for evening ( 6pm to 8am.) & weekend (Fri 6pm-Mon 8am.)
emergency calls 0845 !!!!

Any comments would be welcome as I can't seem to get my head round this one.
I will certainly be commenting on the fact that the new number is not published anywhere & I was told will be given to you when you dial the surgery normal number. Very dangerous I think especially if calling from a phone box with no more cash or if you don't have pen & paper!!  Thats a start.

Tony.
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bigjohn
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #143 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 10:44am
 
8) 8) 8)
This is the exactly the same situation that has arisen in Dorset for out of hours Doctors Service.The NHS seems to have chosen the 0845 route .Probaly to make some revenue!!!
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #144 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 6:06pm
 
Quote:
Any comments would be welcome as I can't seem to get my head round this one.

Tony this is possible to get your head around although it has nothing directly to do with the NEG free switcboard 0870/0844 scam.  It does however depend on the "we are providing a value added service when you just think its a normal call" scam.

Basically out of hours the 0845 number probably forwards the call to either a geographic or mobile number of one of the on call doctors.  Alternatively the 0845 number is a number permanently redirected to a call centre for out of hours doctor support in a specific NHS area.

If the the 0845 number is being used to redirect your call to the home or the mobile number of the on call doctor in the practice then they will claim the advantage is that they do not have to change their answerphone message giving a new phone number every day but that instead the 0845 will redirect automatically to the on call doctor which could probably have been programmed with the 0845 servic provider several days or weeks beforehand as a once a week or once a month operation.  They will claim they are also saving you work by not having to dial another number and that its only "local call rate".

In reality we all know that 0845 numbers are bad for us because they are excluded from BT Option 3 and cost 60p per hour instead of 5.5p per hour offpeak for BT Option 1 customers.

The excuse of the doctors will be that setting up a manual call diversion on their line every day costs them loads of money in forwarded call cost whereas they get 0845 calls forwarded to another 01/02 number for free! (that is free to them but not to you).  And although they could leave the real geographic number on the surgery answerphone each day they might forget to change it each night.  By contrast these 0845 numbers can even be programmed to ring round hunt a group of several different doctors until it finds one that answers the call.

Alternatively the 0845 number is redirecting permanently to a fixed NHS out of hours call centre for the whole region on an underlying fixed geographic numbe in which case the use of 0845 numbers is pure scam as there is no call redirection involbed and no doubt the call centre will probably have simply got its switchboard equipment cheaper by using an 0845 phone number.

The main issue is that BT has always charged horrifically high fees for redirecting calls on a geogaphic number while offering so called "free" call redirection of 0845 number at the caller's expense.  Again the main culprit here if Ofcom who should have forced call diversion prices to become much cheaper and also subject to more competition as the years rolled by.
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bigjohn
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #145 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 12:38am
 
8) 8) 8)

I can only speak about my area Dorset and  SouthHants.In both cases Doctors in these areas have opted out of providing evening and weekend cover.When you phone them out of hours there answering machine message tells you to ring the appropriate 0845 no for your area.These numbers are provided by the local Nhs Trust that deals with GPs.In Dorset the calls are answered in a call centre based at Dorset Ambulance HQ in Ferndown. In Southampton and South Hants the calls are answered in the North of England somewhere!!! Having said that i understand the Nhs are  thinking of moving the Southampton Call Centre into the area it covers.Particularly in the case of Dorset there is no good reason why the Nhs use an 0845 no other then a cheap eqpt,revenue sharing one.Dont hold your breath i understand the Nhs are rolling this out throughout the UK!!! One good thing Dorset Police were going to do the same thing but decided to get around it by offering two normal access no,s 01202 222222 and 01305 222222.If the police can do it why cant the Nhs?
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BJ.
 
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Tanllan
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #146 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 8:00am
 
Quote:
8) 8) 8)

...222222.If the police can do it why can't the NHS?

I fear for the same reason that Cheshire Police Force (whoops, sorry, service) uses 0845 - they are still not very good at telecoms and complicated technical things, nor - sorry, off topic.
Far too many people paid to look after telecoms systems and services are not doing their (possibly well paid) job properly.
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TonyB
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #147 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 10:25am
 
Right, thanks you guys, I'm over the hangover & battling on once more.
So:-
1/ From home after hours &  @ w/ends the first call costs you 5p (to surgery GN ) to be given the 0845 No. to ring for emergency service or the 0845 No. to ring for advice from NHS Direct. The second call then costs from home 1p per min (minimum 5p) rather than up to an hour for 5.5p ON TARIFF 1. and on Tariffs 2 & 3 the second call would not be included as free.

2/ From a phone box the first call would be 30p & last less than 1 min.
Assuming that in the case of an emergency you remembered to put pen & paper in your pyjama pocket to note down the new number you would not have to waste a further 30p ringing back to confirm the new number. You then have to pay 10p connection & 10p per 55 secs to speak to whoever eventually answers the 0845 call.

By this time the patient is dead & your heart ain't too good after all the faffing about. Off subject but a friend of mine had to wait 7 HOURS before the emergency doctor arrived, he is in fact very lucky to still be here.

In conclusion then the cost element does come into the argument against the use of these numbers, but I feel very strongly that the physical imposition of delay could be life threatening.

Tony
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Hugh
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #148 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 1:06pm
 
There are different grades of "emergency". For a real emergency you dial 999 which is of course free!
Or you drive to your A&E.
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: NHS premium & national rate phone lines ba
Reply #149 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 1:16pm
 
Quote:
There are different grades of "emergency". For a real emergency you dial 999 which is of course free!
Or you drive to your A&E.


For non emergencies Surrey Police now give people on BT Option 3 or other inclusive calling plans three different choices:-

A. Ignore the Police's advice to only use 999/112 for emergencies and call using this number regardless.  Also hope that you won't be prosecuted for wasting police time.

B. Call on their 0845 number and incur additional phone call costs at £1.80 per hour (BT landline) or £6.70 per hour (BT Phonebox) that you would not have incurred on the geographic 01483  number formerly used, especially if you are a BT Option 3 or a call18866 customer.

C. Conclude that the Surrey Police are no longer interested in hearing from those who do not want to pay their premium phone rate and so not make the call thus also improving their reported crime statistics at the same time.
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« Last Edit: Apr 13th, 2005 at 1:17pm by N/A »  
 
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