SAYNOTO0870.COM - Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates

derrick

Supreme Member

Offline

Posts: 1,124

Re: Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates
Reply #45 - Jun 8^th, 2008 at 4:36pm

NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 8^th, 2008 at 4:02pm:

derrick wrote on Jun 8^th, 2008 at 2:28pm:

In my opinion it is the publishers who are at fault and the ASA has taken on board that "correct wording is now appearing in all filler ads", as they say; - "

Because there was an error on the part of the publishers and steps have been taken to avoid this happening in future, we will close the case without referring it to the ASA Council.

"

But why does the publisher/printer not suffer any financial penalty for the error (for instance having to circulate a correction sheet to every home that has received the defective directory at their expense) and/or why is the publisher/printer not also subject to complying with the ASA's rules? After all no paper based advert can appear without the intervention of a printer and/or surely yellow pages are also responsible for checking proof copies of the phone book before they go to press? If Yellow Pages did not check a proof copy was compliant with the correct wording before the phone books were printed and/or did not check sample copies after they were printed then surely they are liable. This is an argument you might perhaps like to try advancing with the ASA?

Quote:

p.s . You will not get fined because your MOT is out of date unless you use the vehicle on a public road Wink

But you will now get fined for not having a tax disk unless you have completed a Statutory Off the Road Notification (SORN) when the tax disk is due to be renewed. This will happen even if you never take the car on the public road but have not completed a SORN declaration.

Expect things to go the same way with the MOT once they have fully completed the implementation of their computerised MOT program.

The ASA have closed this case, no point in trying further, will have to wait until next year when the 2009 Yellow pages are delivered.

Re MOT, I did not mention tax disc, (of which you are correct re SORN etc), MOT is fully computerised and has been for 2-3 years, but it is not a requirement to have one unless vehicle on a public road, unlike the RFL, (tax disC ).

Back to top

IP Logged

terryhickmott

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 15
Gender: male

Latest Yellow Pages
Reply #46 - Jan 15^th, 2009 at 10:34am

Have just received the latest edition of this esteemed publication, and it's absolutely bulging with ads quoting 0845 as 'local rate call' or 'lo-call'. There's also a smattering of 0870s and 0871s being quoted as National Rate. I thought YP had been told to stop this practice.
On every page there is a box stating that 0845 costs 6p setup plus up to 2p per minute, yet on the back cover Direct Line quote 0845 as 3p per minute. I thought 0845 was up to 5p per minute.

Are Yellow Pages up to no good here? If so who can order them to stop? Presumably ads in Yellow Pages are still ads?

Off topic, I spotted a national plumbing company's van filling up at Morrisons with the words 0871 xxx xxxx 'National Freephone Number' on the side.

What chance have we???

Terry

Back to top

IP Logged

farci

Full Member

Offline

Posts: 190
Glasgow
Gender: male

Re: Latest Yellow Pages
Reply #47 - Jan 15^th, 2009 at 10:44am

terryhickmott wrote on Jan 15^th, 2009 at 10:34am:

Have just received the latest edition of this esteemed publication, and it's absolutely bulging with ads quoting 0845 as 'local rate call' or 'lo-call'. There's also a smattering of 0870s and 0871s being quoted as National Rate. I thought YP had been told to stop this practice.
On every page there is a box stating that 0845 costs 6p setup plus up to 2p per minute, yet on the back cover Direct Line quote 0845 as 3p per minute. I thought 0845 was up to 5p per minute.

Are Yellow Pages up to no good here? If so who can order them to stop? Presumably ads in Yellow Pages are still ads?

Off topic, I spotted a national plumbing company's van filling up at Morrisons with the words 0871 xxx xxxx 'National Freephone Number' on the side.

What chance have we???

Terry

Complain to the ASA:
http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/how_to_complain/complaints_form/

Back to top

IP Logged

NGMsGhost

Supreme Member

Offline

The Forum Ghost of NonGeographicalMan<b
r />

Posts: 2,720
Surrey, United Kingdom
Gender: male

Re: Latest Yellow Pages
Reply #48 - Jan 15^th, 2009 at 11:51am

terryhickmott wrote on Jan 15^th, 2009 at 10:34am:

Off topic, I spotted a national plumbing company's van filling up at Morrisons with the words 0871 xxx xxxx 'National Freephone Number' on the side.

Report the plumbers to the ASA and also make a complaint with your local Trading Standards department about this.

Calling 0871 Freephone is a much more deliberate and obvious form of deception that Trading Standards are a lot likely to come down harder on than calling 0845 and 0870 local and national rate, which although clearly wrong has some historic basis to it.

Yellow Pages has already had previous ASA adjudications against them on 0845 and 0870 incorrect local and national rate descriptions and promised to change. Another complaint now might lead to some very tough sanctions being taken against them for ignoring previous adjudications and commitments to put matters right.

Of course who knows what the ASA's position will now be on 0845 and 0870 following BT's decision to muddy the waters by including these numbers in inclusive call packages.

Back to top

<div style=

IP Logged

Keith

Senior Member

Offline

Posts: 378
Surrey
Gender: male

Re: Latest Yellow Pages
Reply #49 - Jan 15^th, 2009 at 1:50pm

I agree with farci and NGMsGhost. I'm sure that not only did YP get rapped over the knuckles by the ASA but they then repeated the offence and got another warning - so report them please.

Re plumber - have you any idea what the name was, becasue if they were a UK wide one they are likely to have a web site and the offence is probably repeated there. If so we can have a good go at them.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jan 15^th, 2009 at 3:30pm by Dave »

IP Logged

derrick

Supreme Member

Offline

Posts: 1,124

Re: Latest Yellow Pages
Reply #50 - Jan 15^th, 2009 at 2:29pm

See in particular my posts #34 38 & 39 on page 3 of this thread; - http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1154690370

Might I suggest that you complain to the ASA pointing out that they have been reported before on numerous occasions.

If you want to PM me I will give you my reference numbers re my complaints.

When our latest YP arrives, I will make another complaint if they are still making that claim.

NGMs Ghost, re your comment " Of course who knows what the ASA's position will now be on 0845 and 0870 following BT's decision to muddy the waters by including these numbers in inclusive call packages."

I can't see that making a difference, only BT are doing this and for a company to claim 0845 are "local rate" is misleading under the "Consumer Protection Act 1987 (part III), misleading price indications."

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jan 16^th, 2009 at 11:26am by derrick »

IP Logged

NGMsGhost

Supreme Member

Offline

The Forum Ghost of NonGeographicalMan<b
r />

Posts: 2,720
Surrey, United Kingdom
Gender: male

Re: Latest Yellow Pages
Reply #51 - Jan 18^th, 2009 at 3:31pm

derrick wrote on Jan 15^th, 2009 at 2:29pm:

I can't see that making a difference, only BT are doing this and for a company to claim 0845 are "local rate" is misleading under the "Consumer Protection Act 1987 (part III), misleading price indications."

Yes but it was only deemed to be misleading under Part III of the Consumer Protection Act 1987 because it was never true that 0845 was "local rate" any more. However if for 60% of landline callers (since BT still has this much of the landline market) it is no longer true that 0845 costs any more than 01/02 for those making calls within call packages I can see that someone using them is going to try and make the case with the ASA that they are after all "local rate" numbers again. Obviously standing against this argument is that 0845 and 0870 are now charged at an even greater surcharge by all non BT line providers and also by BT itself outside bundled minutes on BT landlines and at all times from BT Payphones (where they are charged at 19.5p per minute compared to only 1p per minute for calls to 01/02/03 numbers from a BT Public Payphone)

All I am saying is that because the majority of people only have a simplistic understanding of complex matters (phone number codes and charges now being a deliberately complex area as OfCoN has allowed it to become so) that simplistically most BT customers will no longer see 0845 and 0870 as a "bad thing" if they only call them when the numbers come out of bundled minutes. Now even though they in fact underlyingly cost more and BT call packages could clearly have had a price reduction if they had not been included in them at this point in time the fact is that BT's move does not help the arguments of this campaigns because Mr and Mrs Simple will still see it as "but when I call these numbers on my BT landline they are free to call". Obviously standing against this is the fact that they are not included free of charge in the packages of any mobile provider at the present time, although I would have thought BT's move might pressurise the more value oriented mobile operators like Three or Tmobile to consider including them in their contract mobile plans subject to some limit on the number of minutes of calls (probably a lot lower than BT's)

All I am saying is that if one writes to HMRC or Surrey Police now to ask why they are using 0845 and when they plan to get an 03 number one can just see the argument coming back that for BT customers who have call packages in operation when they call them the numbers now no longer cost any extra. This whole move by BT is going to make it much harder for us to force 084/7 government sector operators to switch to 03 and it wasn't exactly easy to do so even up to now was it? Roll Eyes

Obviously 0844 and 0871 calls are still exclude though by BT and we need to focus our arguments there with those who are BT customers who will otherwise potentially no longer see 084/7 as a bad thing.

Back to top

<div style=

IP Logged

derrick

Supreme Member

Offline

Posts: 1,124

Re: Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates
Reply #52 - Jan 18^th, 2009 at 3:54pm

I maintain that it will still be misleading, and so will have to wait until I or someone else makes the next complaint to the ASA when finding one of these numbers described as "local or national rate".

Numbers included in a bundle are NOT free, they are inclusive! You pay for them via the, (extortionate), line rental or the extra for a bundle, and as this quote from SCV says; - "We must also remember that only 1.4 million of the 14 million customers said to be benefiting are currently on the Anytime plan." (10%),the argument can still stand. reply #44 http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1231409039/30

As you say, they will not/are not included in mobile packages,(even with BT), so the "misleading" bit will still stand.

Agree about HMRC and police, but it is up to us to point out and emphasise that it is only BT doing this and that there is a need to be on a paid for package,(to call them during the day), for them to be INCLUSIVE.

Back to top

IP Logged

derrick

Supreme Member

Offline

Posts: 1,124

Re: Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates
Reply #53 - Jan 18^th, 2009 at 4:20pm

Still classing them as “local NTS and National NTS here; -

http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/public/current/Call_Charges_boo/1632_d0e5.htm...

Here, on page 4, they have removed 0845, and are calling 0870 “Special Services higher rate”. Note they have 0843 described as; - “Special Services basic rate: charged at up to and including 5p per minute”
http://www.btwholesale.com/pages/downloads/Products/Interconnect/NUMBER%20SUB-AL...

Back to top

IP Logged

SilentCallsVictim

Supreme Member

Offline

aka NHS.Patient, DH_fairtelecoms

Posts: 2,494

Re: Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates
Reply #54 - Jan 18^th, 2009 at 7:22pm

NGMsGhost is right to alert us to the dangers of misunderstanding caused by the inclusion of 0845 and 0870 in unlimited packages.

This does not however greatly worsen the complication that already exists, and remains, arising from the fact that BT charges less for calls to 0845 numbers, than for 01/02/03.

We can no longer point to the exclusion from BT packages as an example of where the need to support the revenue share is naturally and properly reflected in retail charges, as BT has now extended its cross-subsidy. Many other examples do however remain, i.e. anywhere but with BT, the exception to the rule.

BT has decided to carry the pain suffered by some of its customers in calling revenue sharing numbers; or rather to fund it through cross subsidy. We cannot expect others to follow this example - indeed Virginmedia last week retained the existing charges for calling 0845 and 0870 for its unlimited package subscribers, whilst increasing that for calling 0844.

Whatever may happen with 0870 in the coming months, the fact that BT effectively undercharges for calls to 0845 numbers by its normal residential customers must not be allowed to undermine the cause.

Back to top

@fairtelecoms (tweets)

IP Logged

Dave Global Moderator Offline Posts: 9,902 Yorkshire Gender:	Re: Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates Reply #55 - Jan 18^th, 2009 at 8:37pm Remember that the ASA has ruled that "local rate" is misleading because it implies that there are different local and national rates.
Back to top	IP Logged

Dave

Global Moderator

Offline

Posts: 9,902
Yorkshire
Gender: male

Yellow Pages: 0845 free on "certain" BT packages
Reply #56 - Feb 12^th, 2010 at 10:11pm

I have just received my new Yellow Pages, and inside the rear cover it says:

Quote:

A simple guide to 08 numbers

When you’re looking for a business, it can get a little confusing knowing the difference between the various 08 numbers. However, by remembering a few simple rules, it’s easy. 08 numbers aren’t premium rate, those are 09. It’s not only call centres that have 08 numbers – more and more small local businesses are using them too. And because it’s in your local directory, you can be certain they’ll cover your area.

Here’s a quick guide to how the most commonly used 08 numbers are priced:

0800 and 0808
Known as Freephone numbers, when you dial 0800 or 0808 from a landline, calls cost nothing.*

0845
Is free to call for BT residential customers on certain call packages only.

* Mobile providers and payphone operators may charge but your mobile provider should give you an announcement stating that you will be charged for the call before you are connected.

In response to this, I make two points:

1. Numbers beginning 0871, 0872 and 0873 are “Premium Rate Services” (PRS), along with 09 numbers, but Yellow Pages doesn’t seem to have caught up with this development. This exact same paragraph appeared in the rear inner cover of last year’s publication. Not amending it following the change in August 2009, which saw 0871/2/3 officially classified as PRS, is at best just plain sloppy for a directory that lists phone numbers.

Interestingly, references to the cost of calling 0870 and 0871 numbers, which appeared last year, have disappeared. Yellow Pages’ guide to 08 numbers now only covers 080x and 0845 at certain times on certain tariffs. It does say that it’s a “simple” guide and not a comprehensive one!

2. Here we see yet another example of an organisation promoting BT and its abnormally low 0845 call charges. In fact, it only mentions the call cost as being nothing (“free”) on “certain call packages” and conveniently neglects to mention that on all but one, this qualification only applies at certain times of day.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Feb 12^th, 2010 at 10:21pm by Dave »

IP Logged

NGMsGhost

Supreme Member

Offline

The Forum Ghost of NonGeographicalMan<b
r />

Posts: 2,720
Surrey, United Kingdom
Gender: male

Re: Yellow Pages: 0845 free on "certain" BT packag
Reply #57 - Feb 12^th, 2010 at 10:22pm

Dave wrote on Feb 12^th, 2010 at 10:11pm:

1. Numbers beginning 0871, 0872 and 0873 are “Premium Rate Services” (PRS), along with 09 numbers, but Yellow Pages doesn’t seem to have caught up with this development. This exact same paragraph appeared in the rear inner cover of last year’s publication. Not amending it following the change in August 2009, which saw 0871/2/3 officially classified as PRS, is at best just plain sloppy for a directory that lists phone numbers.

Here we see yet another example of an organisation promoting BT and its abnormally low 0845 call charges. In fact, it only mentions the call cost as being nothing (“free”) on “certain call packages” and conveniently neglects to mention that on all but one, this qualification only applies at certain times of day.

Dave,

I trust your complaint has already been logged on the www.asa.org.uk website? Wink

Back to top

<div style=

IP Logged

Dave

Global Moderator

Offline

Posts: 9,902
Yorkshire
Gender: male

Re: Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates
Reply #58 - Feb 12^th, 2010 at 10:56pm

Dave wrote on Feb 29^th, 2008 at 8:30pm:

The lies from Yellow Pages I referred to above about 084 being "local rate" are still on its website. See here.

Nearly two years on and this page I linked to still says:

Quote:

Dialling codes and call charges

A dialling code can give you information about call charge rates. For example:

00 International codes
01 Area codes
02 Area codes
07 Calls charged at mobile rates
080 Calls are free
084 Calls charged at local rates
087 Calls charged at national rates
09 Calls charged at premium rates

Back to top

IP Logged

Dave

Global Moderator

Offline

Posts: 9,902
Yorkshire
Gender: male

Re: Yellow Pages: 0845 free on "certain" BT packag
Reply #59 - Mar 4^th, 2010 at 11:46am

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 12^th, 2010 at 10:22pm:

I trust your complaint has already been logged on the www.asa.org.uk website? Wink

I submitted a complaint to ASA, but they say it's note in their remit as it is "editorial". I submitted a complaint to Consumer Direct which has been passed on to Trading Standards, but CD can give no guarantee that TS will do anything.

Back to top

IP Logged