I wrote to Havering NHS Primary care trust to complain about use of 0844 number by Western Road medical Centre, Romford. (Your geographical alterntive is good.) I have received a reply. Quote:

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While there is no explicit ban on 0844 numbers worded exactly like that in the printed guidelines, it is clearly stated that GPs can only use 0844 numbers if they cost less to call than 01 and 02 numbers. The problem for GPs is that 0844 numbers do not cost less to call than 01 and 02 numbers. Therefore 0844 numbers are effectively banned, even if many of those in charge can't bring themselves to actually state that outright.


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Since when has the provider of the line owned by the person you are calling had anything to do with the costs? Calling someone with an 01 number rented from BT costs the same as calling someone with an 01 number rented from Sky as long as both calls are made by the same method. Or were they talking about calling from a BT landline and got confused?

It is the callers phone service supplier that sets the charges for the calls that are made. A study of the call costs for all the major landline providers confirms that 0844 numbers either cost more or cost substantially more to call than 01 and 02 numbers. The costs are not comparative and 0844 numbers fail the test of costing the same or less than calling 01 numbers.

This also applies when calling from a mobile phone where 0844 numbers always cost more to call than 01 numbers.


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The numbers that NEG used are flawed, inaccurate and are not representative.


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I'd have thought that this quote from the Secretary of State is clear enough?
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See: http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2012-03-27a.1326.4&s=%28no+OR+not%29+A...

However, GPs never "charge patients for calls". The phone service company that the caller uses is the one that sends the bill and collects the money.


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GPs do not set the call charges for their numbers. The GP's telephone service provider do not set the call charges for the GPs numbers. Call charges are set by the company that the caller uses to make a call to their GP. However, GPs can influence the cost that callers pay by the type (01/02, 03, 084, 087) of number that they choose for their service.
It's galling to think that the people charged with enforcing this regulation have absolutely no clue how the telephone system actually works.
In order to comply with the directive that all callers must not pay more to call a GP than they would pay to call an 01 number, the GP must use an 01, 02 or 03 number.


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Where 0844 numbers are concerned, they cannot do so. 0844 numbers cost more than 01/02/03 numbers. It's very clear and can be confirmed by looking at the tariff lists for Vodafone, O2, Orange, T-Mobile, Three, Tesco Mobile, Virgin, Lebara, TalkMobile, GiffGaff, etc, for mobile calls and for BT, Sky, Virgin, TalkTalk, and many others for landline calls.


I cannot understand how more than two years after 0844 numbers were banned, certain people continue to try to defend the indefensible.

catj wrote on May 27^th, 2012 at 2:52am:

It may be helpful to add to these comments.


It is indeed stated in the Directions to NHS Bodies, and as follows in the DH Further Guidance
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This statement, and the greater cost of calling when "having regard to the arrangement as a whole" applies to ALL 084 numbers, it does not apply specifically to any subtype.

The Hansard writers, as noted by TheyWorkForYou in the quoted reference, changed the "084" in the exchange between John Healey and Andrew Lansley (the Secretary of State) to "0844", to reflect the confusion shown by the latter in trying to reply to the question he was asked.

The exchange in question is best understood from the official recording, starting at this link. Healey, with many GPs in his constituency having been using 0845 numbers, is clear - Lansley, unprepared for this supplementary question when discussing 111, is obviously well aware of the more commonly used 0844 and looks to Healey for confirmation that this was what he was referring to.


All 3 types of 084 number (3/4/5) are banned under current conditions. All references to specific numbers in this context by the DH have always covered all 084 numbers. The failure to make the ban explicit by number range may have arisen from three considerations:

• When introducing an explicit ban on various ranges in 2005, the DH got too deeply involved in the issues and made the terrible mistake of omitting 084 numbers from the ban, by not properly understanding what it was doing. In 2009, it was anxious to neither admit to, nor repeat, this mistake.
   
• The DH had been made aware of the perverse cases where callers pay a penalty rate for calls to geographic numbers, which exceeds that of the premium rate for an equivalent call to a 084 number.
  
  It had also noted the cases where telephone companies (notably BT) require all package subscribers to contribute towards the premiums paid on 0845 calls, rather than applying the premiums only to those who call these numbers.
  (This move by BT was in anticipation of an expected designation of 0845 as geographic rate, as referred to below. It was made in parallel with what was then an anticipation of the changes to 0870, which did occur a few months later.)
  
  The DH may have been misled into thinking that there was a serious possibility of all those who call a particular NHS provider being subject to one or other of these particular conditions. This absurd idea could have arisen from a misunderstanding about who sets the call charges incurred by callers for particular numbers.
   
• At the time when the Directions to NHS Bodies and GP contract changes were being drafted, it was still widely believed by many that Ofcom would shortly be designating 0845 numbers as geographic rate, as it had done with 0870 a few months previously. If Ofcom had done so during 2010, the then set timescale for its review of 0845 (alone), a possible explicit ban on all 084 numbers would have had to be revised if and when these expected provisions came into effect.
  
  This change was not made and this idea has now been expressly abandoned. As we now know, Ofcom extended its 2010 review to cover all non-geographic numbers and also proposes to use its newly acquired additional powers to make forthcoming designations more effective than was possible with the change to 0870 in 2009.
  
  Ofcom now clearly states that 03 will remain as the only geographic-rated non-geographic range. (This leaves the situation of 055/056 numbers potentially in doubt. Although no such numbers are known to be used by NHS providers, this highlights the difficulty of industry-specific regulations which ban use of particular numbers by specifying a range in a changing regulatory environment.)

Uncertainty about possible future regulations does not however excuse the failure of the DH to share an understanding of current actual charge rates for particular ranges that are widely in use with the many bodies which have to apply its stated requirements. Each and every one of these bodies is thereby left to each study the same nationally applicable published telephone tariffs for themselves. Because there are no significant distinct local issues (there is only one Constitution and set of principles for a National Health Service) there is no justification for this unnecessary duplication of effort by public officials and NHS providers.


I make these points in an attempt to help an understanding of why use of 084 numbers was not banned explicitly, whereas the effect of the Directions and GP Contract revisions is that they are banned.

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(One further comment follows) …

Following a major item in Series 1 and a plug for SayNoTo0870 in Series 3, I understand that BBC Rip-Off Britain is still keen to cover this issue in Series 4 (which is currently being prepared for broadcast in the late Autumn).

Rather than a full item however, the plan is to cover the issue in the context of the "Pop up" shop being held in Gateshead on Sat / Sun, 16 / 17 June.

Although there is a genuine "walk-in" element to this, the producers are very keen to hear from people who are able to attend the event and are ready to be filmed talking about how they have been ripped-off, with "an expert".

Anyone keen to contribute should contact the BBC via the contact us form on the Rip Off Britain web page, as soon as possible.

(Timing is important as some of the show content is prepared in advance.)

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No. That's a disadvantage. Your money is draining away before you get to speak to someone.



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There was no mention of alternative 03 numbers that GPs could start using tomorrow without having to invoke a termination fee. Why is the service provider not openly offering that option? Calls to 03 numbers cost the same as calling 01 and 02 numbers and are treated as being part of 'inclusive' minutes.



It was revealed that six of the contracts expire in 2015 and four in 2016. When were these contracts started? It's possible that these were started after the April 2010 ban on using numbers that 'cost more then the price of a geographic number to call'.

Also not discussed was what measures are being taken to ensure that for GPs not currently using 0844 numbers that none of those start using 0844 numbers in the future. I'm sure that some of the providers of 0844 telephone number systems are still actively trying to get more GPs to sign up to use them.

Those didn't sound like Welsh accents to me. 

Source: Postcode Gazette

GPs surgeries across city [Sheffield] flounting rules on using premium numbers

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