[quote author=KVSimons link=1160182005/15#28 date=1184662289]Having read various incorrect postings re NEG, and quite frankly an offensive posting from user idb I felt compelled to register and post a response. I use the word 'offensive' as idb feels that a) he has the right to make assumptions about me and how I 'bull s**t' my customers and b) he assumes to know Surgery Line - when in fact this person has never even discussed our service with us.

Just to clarify; after 13 years in this business and a holder of both a degree and Masters I feel no need to go out and 'scam' people in order to make a living.

OK - personal feelings to one side;

It makes no odds to us at all if a surgery queues calls for 20mins or 1min or not at all and continues to give the engaged tone as we do not make money from this element.

The SURGERY makes this choice, and can change the queue duration at any time, as Surgery Line is bespoke it can often take about 3-6months before it fits the environment of the practice, list size and patient demographic.

Many practices conduct patient surveys, and this always bring up the problem of access, esp first thing in the morning.

The practice can either continue to give the engaged tone, meaning no one can get through - even if they wanted to cancel their appt, or employ another person to ans calls for the first 1.5 hours, OR adopt a queue facility which TELLS THE PATIENT WHERE THEY ARE IN THE QUEUE - so they have a choice.

I am also a patient, and before my own GP moved to Surgery Line it was a total nightmare to get through. I am far too busy to keep ringing an engaged tone in the hope I can get through. For this reason I often didn't bother to cancel my appts as I couldn't reach them. It also cost me 50p to use BT ring back.

It probably costs me about £1 a year to ring my doctor - lets get things in perspective shall we?

We are the preferred supplier to GP in the UK and again we don't make out money from the length of call, but the rental for the hardware of the system. Practices have a choice - THEY decide how it is set up, not us.

Rather than speculate about NEG - wouldn't it be far better to speak to us and get a true picture? [/quote]Ms Simons, as you appear to need to state credentials, then I'll do the same. I have a bachelor's degree in engineering and a master's degree in computing. My former responsibilities in the United Kingdom included the administration of a telephone switch within the public sector. I am fully aware of how NGNs, including 084X, 087X, 070X and 09X are used by various organizations to establish a revenue stream and in many cases exploit the public.

SurgeryLine is a rip-off. It also may have serious consequences. Just because you are too busy to redial after receiving a busy tone doesn't mean that 80-year old Mrs Smith, living on benefits, is also too busy. I'm sure she would rather redial than pay the rip-off rate for dialing an 0844 number. Consider Mr Jones, a welfare recipient who either has to use payphones or PAYG cellular. Would he rather have a geographic number or one that begins 0844? I'll let you guess the answer.

Consider those, like myself, that had a requirement to call my surgery from overseas. Before becoming a permanent US resident, I was traveling back and forth between the UK and Florida whilst awaiting various medical test results. This happened over an eighteen month period. I also needed to schedule and change appointments. If my surgery had used a scam 0844 number, then I would have been denied access as my US telephone provider does not route calls to scam 0844 numbers.

My elderly parents have also visited me in Florida. Should the need arise, how can they or I or a health care professional call their UK surgery, in an emergency situation, when many foreign providers do not route to scam 0844 numbers? (If you don't believe me, either ask Ofcom, or I'll provide a link to Ofcom documentation). Please explain what we should do.

When will NEG stop calling these numbers 'lo-call', 'low-call' or similar?

Now 03 numbers are coming, will SurgeryLine use these as such numbers will have no detriment to the patient.

Unfortunately I recently suffered at the hands of this outfit. My local surgery unbenown to me had changed to Surgery Line in the interests of 'Customer Improvement' after a survey of their patients. I should have known this was coming.
Recently I was on holiday in the Canaries and developed problems with my lower back which required the attendance of a local doctor to the complex where I was staying. Because I have had similar problems on a vist some months before to the Canaries the doctor would not give me any further treatment without speaking to my local GP in the UK. He tried the 0844 number and this would not connect. I then went to the expense of 'phoning a friend who uses the same surgery and asking her to obtain an alternative number. This was given as an 0870 number. Surprise surprise this wouldn't work either. Upon contacting Telefonica the main telecoms provider for Spain / Canaries I was advised that they will only connect to UK nos beginning with 01, 02 and 07 due to previous problems in attempting to recover monies owned due to the 'revenue sharing arrangement'. I don't take a mobile on holiday due to the cost of calls and I don't want to be disturbed either. After all I'm on holiday.

As a result I spent the best part of a day in hospital in Las Palmas for further checks. This all could have been avoided if the local doctor could have spoken with my GP in the UK. My insurance company wouldn't cover me either, so be warned in you're travelling abroad.

KVSimons wrote on Jul 17^th, 2007 at 9:51am:

The response from yourself that idb referred to is this:
Quote:

The first highlighted paragraph is incorrect as a non-geographic number is, by definition, one that is not geographical. That means that 0844 is a non-geographical number prefix. The term 'lo-call' is one that was coined by BT to market 0845 numbers (not 0844), and is now no longer used by them for the very reason that it is potentially misleading. Refer to this page on BT's website. 0844 and 0871 are marketed as 'Contactcall' numbers and 0845 and 0870 are 'BT 0845' and 'BT 0870', respectively.

In the second highlighted paragraph you quite rightly identify that there is a free market whereby telephone users can choose a provider(s) for their service. As with most service providers, a doctor's surgery is fixed, and therefore it is reasonable to consider the price of a telephone call from the caller to them is the price of a (geographical) UK landline call as that is where the call terminates.

By imposing a 0844 NGN on the caller, they are paying a premium to call [Lookup the definition of 'premium' in the dictionary]. Simple. That is what Say no to 0870 is about. By being forced to call a company on 084x/087x they are charging me above the price of a standard landline call.

The potential merits of how the Surgery Line system functions are not being questioned in the same way that the benefits of NTS are not in doubt. Having a call answered and being put in queue costs the caller. That's the case choose what "product" is used. The only place where the caller doesn't pay is when they have an inclusive package, but then you believe and the surgeries (service providers) that you have carte blanche to decide what the market price is for a telephone call ("just a few pence").

KVSimons wrote on Jul 17^th, 2007 at 9:51am:

So where do the call charges go? The tooth fairy?

Ms Simons, please clarify where the revenue from the 0844 number goes. I suspect you are splitting hairs in that the revenue (2p/min???) goes to the surgery who then (in practice) pay it back to NEG for provision of the service. If this is the case, then NEG would obviously receive payment regardless. Thus, the surgery is benefiting in kind.

At 2p/min there is obviously room for other party(ies) to profit, probably the telco providing NGN. As the customer of this company, NEG should be paying this, and not the caller. This would drive down the charges for these NTS numbers, rather than fixing them at xp/min to the caller. They are therefore contravene the free competitive market in telephone calls which has been introduced.

Also, if a company does not profit from an 084x/087x number, it certainly receives services in kind. These should be paid for out of the service provider's budget and not on a per minute basis by the caller!!!

In answer to your response, I work as Snr Consultant for NEG - so you could say I am biased (!) or I am simply passionate about our company and the service we provide (depending on what side of the fence you sit at!!). To be quite honest we have taken a lot of stick since the days of 0870 - which were banned obviously by the DOH, shortly before they agreed to let us roll out 0844 - all this history and the fact we install at 30-40 surgeries a month make us even more determined because the bottom line is that it does work and it is a fantastic service, the queuing part is only 20% of the solution it offers so much more; both practice and patient perspective.

The public (which includes me!) have a right as to who provides their gas, electricity and telephony at home. There are more and more suppliers on the market. I am with One Tel, and as I may very few calls at peak time (as I am out working), my best package gives me free evening and weekend calls plus a low line rental (zero in fact). It does mean that I do have to pay to use my surgery's 0844 number; but I can book and cancel my appts 24/7 365 days a year, so while I am in the minority that does have to pay I feel it's worth it as I can access my surgery easily and at any time convienient to me. Plus of course I make 99% of my calls from my mobile.

The 0844 is charged the same as a standard BT rate.

I also go back to saying - practices don't have to have the queueing, plus they decide how many to queue; some practices we work with have this set quite high (these tend to be large) and other, smaller ones will either have no queuing or will have it set at say 5 or 10.

Re School Line, 03 numbers have been mentioned - these won't be rolled out for another 18 months - 2years - so who knows!!

KVSimons wrote on Jul 17^th, 2007 at 4:23pm:


No it isn't.

BT Option 3 includes unlimited calls to 01/02 numbers.  0844 calls with NEG are not part of this allowance and are charged at 5p per minute at all times.

Virgin Everyday Pay As You Go tariff costs 12p per minute at all times to all 01/02 numbers and all 077, 078 and 079 mobile numbers.  0844 numbers cost 40p per minute at all times.

Contract mobile phone give 500 or 750 minutes a month for instance for say £30 to all 01/02 and other mobile numbers. 0844 numbers are excluded and cost around 20p to 40p per minute.  There are no packages that include these numbers.  The revenue share rake off makes it impossible.

So not a normal BT rate is it.

Its not just your own little scam 0844 numbers is it either ?  Its all the other lieing scam operators with scam staff like you with no principle and no conscience and only pound signs in their eyes and only interested in meeting their sales targets to get more money in their own pocket  and not able to think about the big picture of people only paying £5 per month for all 01/02 calls but another £20 per month for all the 084/7 numbers not in their calls package.  Which lieing toerags like you still outrageously claim are the normal BT rate.

My theory is that most people at NEG have either been lobotomised on joining the company or are congenitally stupid so they are not able to analyse facts in a normal logical and rational manner.  Look at your founder.  One shouldn't judge from appearances but he looks like more like Ducking and Diving dodgy Essex dell box than Brain of Britain doesn't he.

Yes that is rude but I think rudeness is entirely called for when it comes to NEG and its deplorable army of money grabbing staff.

For instance are you not aware that the cost of calling an NEG number from a phone box is 13p per minute compared to only 2p per minute for a normal 01/02 number.

Think of the 80 year old pensioner who has an ill wife with only a few coins in their pocket.  Where is your conscience young lady?

mikeinnc wrote on Jul 17^th, 2007 at 4:54pm:


Ah yes I missed the 13 years with NEG and I expect she was probably selling double glazing or life assurance before that.

So an inveterate lifelong sales women unable to tell truth from fiction and undoubtedly willing to sell her own grandmother in order to pay next month's mortgage interest.

You only need to look at the picture of NEG's founder under About Us to imagine the kind of people who work there.

Still there's always selling wheel clamping to councils next month if Ofcom ever wakes up and so causes NEG to go belly up.

I wonder what on earth the Masters can have been in?

NGMsGhost

BA (Hons) in Economics and Politics - but that was 1985 when getting a degree was a bit more difficult than it is today.

KVSimons wrote on Jul 17^th, 2007 at 4:23pm:
Your qualifications can't really be in maths if you think that an 0844 which is generally charged at 5p/min at all times (from a BT landline) is the same as BTs normal rate.  BT currently charge 3p/min daytime and is cheaper of evening and weekend.

As Dave has mentioned, we don't generally dispute the benefits of non-geographical numbers but it's when companies advertise these numbers as local (you once did) or national when in fact the number is a stealth premium rate number.

It is stealth because there is revenue made from it either by the surgery and/or NEG and in many cases consumers (or patients in this case) aren't aware that money is being made from the call.

Some Communication Providers generally provide revenue to users who have an 0845 and as this is cheaper priced than the 0844 numbers used by NEG, then it becomes obvious that revenue is made from the call regardless of how it is used and by whom.

If you weren't that concerned about revenue (as supposedly NEG doesn't make any) then why do you go through all the trouble of disconnecting the geographical numbers used by surgeries and issue new geographical numbers which it appears in all cases you don't inform the surgery of their new geographical number instead just issue them an 0844 or 0870 to inform their patients of.

In most cases, non-geographical numbers like 0844 just divert/transfer to one or more geographical numbers.

Why do you try and hide the geographical number from surgeries and patients if there is no revenue made from 0844 numbers?

You could give patients a choice by issuing a geographical number to surgeries.  That way, patients can choose whether to keep trying to get through (in the case of an engaged geographical number) or wait in a queue and be charged for doing so.